Soviet Sergeant Gnitienko's "Glory-Trio"

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Dave,

many thanks for that highly interesting story:

However, when the research came back, it proved that the document had been doctored, and two awards had been added into the book. This was a shock to all, as the book was PERFECT. I mean PERFECT. (I only wish I had good scans of it!)

Dave

Could show at least the bad scans to us and tell us the datas of the set.

Many thanks in advance .

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Dave,

If I were to sell this group for it's current value (debateable between $8K-$12K) I think I would have a really tough time selling it. Dave

Believe me, if I would offer Gnitienko's Glory-Trio right now, here at the spot, for USD 8.000,-, then I would have within one hour 4 offers from Russia, 3 offers from China, 2 offers from the USA and one offer from Vienna, Austria (also a Russian guy) .

Believe me, I wouldn't sell the set for USD 20.000,- and I am happy to have it .

Nobody has ever shown to the collectors community a perfectly doctored or faked old, used, smelly and worne Cavaliers Booklet.

Do you really think, that forgers obtained a blank booklet 10 years ago and gave the booklet to one poor devil to use it for 10 years, that it gets smelly and spoiled ?

The Glory-Trio is problem-free and research will show, where the clerical mistake took place - Soviet Union was a mess in the 1980 and the administration in agony.

Best regards

Christian

[Mondvor]

Christian, because this case is interesting, I sent the images of Gnitienko's medals and documents to my friend and co-author Igor Pak. He didn't find anything wrong with this group, except the number. He agreed that most likely it is a clerk's mistake. However, he said that he would ask Georgy Grishko (the creator of the book with Glory numbers) about Gnitienko's case. Maybe he would be able to find something explaining this situation with a different 1st class numbers.

[Riley1965]

Christian,

Dave has a VERY GOOD Point!! I would have this one well researched, if for no other reason than your own peace of mind. I feel that it's a clerical error, but that's just my opinion not proof.

Doc

[NavyFCO]

Could show at least the bad scans to us and tell us the datas of the set.

Ask and you shall receive. Here's what I've got left of it. That's the reason I've never posted up the document before. Now if I just had a copy of the CoA that went with it...

Dave

[slava1stclass]

I'm thinking of this group as if it was something that I was going to sell....and I've always had to PROVE that something was legit, particularly when it was "big money", which this group is considered.

If I were to sell this group for it's current value (debateable between $8K-$12K) I think I would have a really tough time selling it. Why? Because the "official" documents say that the Glory 1st isn't the right one. It's nice to have other collectors on the forum say that the book is right, but when someone is going to put that kind of money on the line, they want to KNOW beyond a legal "shadow of a doubt" that it's right. At this point, I don't think we can say that we all fully KNOW that it's right. Sure, it LOOKS right, but what we need is documented proof that the Glory 1st that's with the group is the right one. If we can get documentation from the archives that he was actually awarded this Glory 1st and that it was a bona-fide administrative error, then we can put this entire debate to rest.

Dave

To all:

Dave captures my sentiments exactly - sentiments which I've expressed in some of the earliest posts in this thread.

- Do the three Orders of Glory alleged to have been awarded to G. appear legit - yes.

- Does G's Full Cavalier booklet appear legit (the Order of Glory 1st Class s/n number discrepancy aside) - yes.

- Would I personally want to include this set in my own Full Cavalier collection knowing what we know (or better yet, don't know) - no.

Don't take me wrong, I certainly wish Herr Zulus good luck in his search for indisputable hard evidence to clarify/justify this exceptional case. Absent such proof, however, a heavy cloud of suspicion/doubt will always hang over this set for the reasons Dave has so clearly articulated.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited December 15, 2006 by slava1stclass

[Ed_Haynes]

This is why INTENSIVE research is called for, more than is usual. So much seems to "feel" good that the oddities need to be resolved.

All of us await research returns.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Dave,

Ask and you shall receive. Here's what I've got left of it. That's the reason I've never posted up the document before. Now if I just had a copy of the CoA that went with it...

Dave

many thanks for the scan .

It is very small ....

Do you still have the datas of the set - receipients name, s/n. and so on?

What type of Cavaliers Booklet or OK is that? It looks unusal - the stamps also .

How did the forgery took place - they took a fresh OK from the stock?

It would be a great attachment to fake-section at GMIC.

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Issuing number of the Cavaliers Booklet not listed in the special award card

Dear Andrew,

many thanks for your support .

Gregory (another "Gregory"), who conducts the research of Gnitienko's Glory-Trio told to me, that it is really strange, that the issuing number of the Cavaliers Booklet - I # 503369 - is not listed at his special award card.

Andrew, what do you about that fact - did they work in a rather "sloppy" way in 1980/81?

Another theory about the mismatching s/n.: Maybe Gnitienko's Glory 1 cl + Cavaliers Booklet never reached Charkov - got lost, was stolen, etc. - and Moscow sent a new medal with a new Cavaliers Booklet to Charkov ?

Would it be possible to ask the heirs & relatives of Gnitienko about the case, or is it to difficult to dedect them somewhere in the region of Charkov?

Would it be possible to find some newspaper articles about Gnitienko?

Christian, because this case is interesting, I sent the images of Gnitienko's medals and documents to my friend and co-author Igor Pak. He didn't find anything wrong with this group, except the number. He agreed that most likely it is a clerk's mistake. However, he said that he would ask Georgy Grishko (the creator of the book with Glory numbers) about Gnitienko's case. Maybe he would be able to find something explaining this situation with a different 1st class numbers.

Edited December 16, 2006 by Christian Zulus

[Christian Zulus]

Heavy cloud of suspicion & doubt at GMIC

To Mr. "slava1stclass",

if you say, yes the 3 medals + the document looks o.k. and appear legit, where do you mark out the "heavy cloud of suspicion/doubt"?

I want to remind, that you posted in the "other" Soviet awards forum, that you have never seen a doctored - old & worne ones, not new ones, fresh from the stock with faked entries - Cavaliers Booklet.

You are THE expert of the Order of Glory in the collectors community. So, if your remarks about Cavaliers Booklets, should not be valid anymore, please show us some scans of your large and impressive collection, which show forged old, rotten & smelly Cavaliers Booklets .

I assume, the "sentiments"-discussion might be initiated by the feeling: "These awards are not in my collection - had not been traded by me -, so they have to be fakes" .

Gnitienko's Glory-Trio is a set of your very 1st category, with Cavaliers Booklet, all entries, photograph and stamp of the military commissariat. Besides of these facts, Gnitienko's Glory 1 cl medal is in an almost 10/10 condition, due to the fact, that he received his order in 1981. Glory-sets of your 1st category had not been at the market for a long time - they are rather rare and only a few hundred might exist.

Dave mentioned, that the market value of Gnitienko's set might be about USD 8.000,- and it might be rather difficult to find a buyer - a "not right-minded collector" - for that "heavy clouded" set. That is a (bad) joke in my eyes. I assume, that you would buy that set at the spot for USD 8k and trade it to one of the listed collectors, who are waiting for 1st-category-set, for about USD 16k - 100% profit .

To all: At the the top of this page it is written "For the serious collector of military history" and NOT "For the eager and ambitious trader & buzinezman" . I am collecting. I never sold or traded one item. I want to research the "crown juwels" in my modest collection. I have a strong scientific interest in the history of the Soviet Union.

Best regards

Herr Zulus, MSc (WU)

To all:

Dave captures my sentiments exactly - sentiments which I've expressed in some of the earliest posts in this thread.

- Do the three Orders of Glory alleged to have been awarded to G. appear legit - yes.

- Does G's Full Cavalier booklet appear legit (the Order of Glory 1st Class s/n number discrepancy aside) - yes.

- Would I personally want to include this set in my own Full Cavalier collection knowing what we know (or better yet, don't know) - no.

Don't take me wrong, I certainly wish Herr Zulus good luck in his search for indisputable hard evidence to clarify/justify this exceptional case. Absent such proof, however, a heavy cloud of suspicion/doubt will always hang over this set for the reasons Dave has so clearly articulated.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited December 16, 2006 by Christian Zulus

[slava1stclass]

To all:

As the old Serbian proverb goes: "Лепа реч и гвоздена врата отвара." I sincerely wish Herr Zulus good luck in his efforts to secure documentation that will bring definitive closure to this case. Even if the remaining research should come back negative, we can rest assured this group of orders will forever remain in the hands of a devoted collector.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited December 18, 2006 by slava1stclass

[Riley1965]

Christian,

The ONLY way this is going to be resolved is to get the research. Nothing short of the research documents will tell the story. You and Slava can go at each other untill the end of time. That's not going to solve this. PLEASE, GET IT RESEARCHED!!![/b]

Doc

[Christian Zulus]

Christian,

The ONLY way this is going to be resolved is to get the research. Nothing short of the research documents will tell the story. You and Slava can go at each other untill the end of time. That's not going to solve this. PLEASE, GET IT RESEARCHED!!![/b]

Doc

Dear Doc,

the research is going on .

But besides my interest (as a historian), how the mistake happened, I have no problem with my Glory-set, because it is "problem free" .

I only quote Slava's opinion about faked books, he posted at the "other" Soviet awards forum.

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

To all:

As the old Serbian proverb goes: "Лепа реч и гвоздена врата отвара." I sincerely wish Herr Zulus good luck in his efforts to secure documentation that will bring definitive closure to this case. Even if the remaining research should come back negative, we can rest assured this group of orders will forever remain in the hands of a devoted collector.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To gospodin "slava1stclass":

"Лепа реч и гвоздена врата отвара." ("A nice word may open an iron gate."): These are good and true words .

Here in Vienna we say: "Der Ton macht die Musik" ("The sound makes the music.") .

Any news about the publishing date of your "Glory-Book"? Maybe you could share some items of your great collection with us at GMIC .

Pozdrav

Christian

[slava1stclass]

Dear Doc,

the research is going on .

Christian

Herr Zulus,

How is your request for research progressing? The forum's gentlemen anxiously await the results so that closure may be brought to this very unusual case.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, it would be nice to hear. Though I must admit that my recent research requests have been moving on a geological time scale, it seems.

[Riley1965]

Yeah, Research requests have slooooowed GREATLY. I hope all is well with our friend!!

Doc

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

many thanks for your interest to the backgrounds of Gnitienko's Cavaliers set .

Just some days ago, at the evening of the 31st of march, I sent Gregory an e-mail, asking, if he has any news for us.

As soon, as I have a reply, I will post it here at GMIC.

Best regards

Christian

BTW: If someone might still think Gnitienko's set is faked or doctored, please read the postings of Andrew "Mondvor" in this tread - many thanks .

[Christian Zulus]

Igor presents another case of a clerical mistake with a "Order of Glory" group

Gentlemen,

Igor presents at his website another interesting case on a Glory-group 2cl & 3cl: http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=16955 .

Sorry ..... still no reply of the researcher .

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Information from the researcher

Gentlemen,

I got this information from our researcher:

"I appologize for the delay in replying - I just got back after doing an auction in Finland and two back-to-back shows in Europe. Nothing is back yet on Gnitenko. Since this was a hard case from the beginning (we're looking for a very specific document not just an award card) it's likely to take longer than normal.

I'll let you know as soon as I have more info."

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Sgt. Gnitienko received the Glory 1st class #1965

Gentlemen,

I just got that e-mail from our researcher:

Christian,

Your research is ready. It was well worth the wait as

I found the prove that Gnitienko has been awarded with

Glory 1-st cl # 1965.

As soon, as I have the documents, I will show the scans here at the thread .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: So, Gnitienko's Glory-Cavalier set is one of the 1st category - without any doubts .

Edited August 11, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[order_of_victory]

Sgt. Gnitienko received the Glory 1st class #1965

Gentlemen,

I just got that e-mail from our researcher:

Christian,

Your research is ready. It was well worth the wait as

I found the prove that Gnitienko has been awarded with

Glory 1-st cl # 1965.

As soon, as I have the documents, I will show the scans here at the thread .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: So, Gnitienko's Glory-Cavalier set is one of the 1st category - without any doubts .

Congrats Christian glad to hear its a good set

Order of Victory

[Christian Zulus]

Gnitienko's award card - part 1

[Christian Zulus]

Gnitienko's award card - part 2

Edited August 11, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Gerd Becker]

Christian, i am glad to hear, your Glory Trio turned out good. Congrats