GMVK medal on bar.....identification possible?

[Les]

A buddy of mine has a mounted GMVK, and there's an unoffical "Garde du Corps" regimental medal attached to the bar. Does any one have the book listing recipients for the GMVK and is there any chance of getting a list of GdC enlisted men that were awarded the GMVK? The bar is "NFS" but I can always hope....

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Les

[Les]

Before there are requests to see the reverse of the bar, it's setting in a glass case -inside- another glass case. Getting a clear photo through two sheets of glass is "fun" if you've never tried it. Getting it out of both cases, and then back in would have been far more trouble than my friend was willing to get into today.

Les

[Stogieman]

Great little bar with a real "Spangen=stuch" version of the GMVK... looks like an extremely early one with applied center chiffres! Nice! I don't think you'll be able to ID him based on just this unless there's exactly one in a Garde du Korps Regiment!

[Deruelle]

Hi,

I have got the following book "von den Taten der Tapferen" from Dr Nickel. At the end of the book there is all the name of the NCO who received the GMVK. I will search and I hope I can help you.

Regards

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

The problem is that while the wearer may have been PROUDEST of his service in that unit, all the cavalry regiments were broken up after 1914 and served largely as composite infantry.

So whatever unit he EARNED the GMVK in, most likley in 1917-18 when the majority were awarded, it would not have been in THAT regiment.

[Stogieman]

Good point Rick, I had not considered that the units were broken up and dispersed when they realized cavalry units were no longer viable... this is exactly what happened to von Richtoffen & Voss BTW.

[Les]

The problem is that while the wearer may have been PROUDEST of his service in that unit, all the cavalry regiments were broken up after 1914 and served largely as composite infantry.

So whatever unit he EARNED the GMVK in, most likley in 1917-18 when the majority were awarded, it would not have been in THAT regiment.

Rick,

The "depot" system used at that time resulted in regimental officers and enlisted men entering service, usually through a regiment, and on release from service being mustered out or released through their home depot where they would exhange their Soldbuchs carried on active duty, for their peace time Militarpass. Entries made in a Soldbuch during active duty were entered into the Miitarpass, pay and financial accounting done, and the individual released.

Officers that indivudually "transfered" to aviation units during the war, if they were still alive at war's end, were mustered out back at the same regimental depot they entered service. (I have photostatic copies of one flight officer's records that show his transfer from the infantry to aviation, and then being sent back to his home unit and mustered out there in the summer of 1919. This appears to be a typical bureaucratic proceedure.) Richtofen although a "flier" was still carried on the rolls of his home regiment; he transfered to aviation while a Leutnant, and while a flier, was promoted to a "Rittmeister", continued to wear the uniform of his parent unit, and had he lived to war's end, would have been mustered out as an Uhlan. If you check out the Ehrenranglisten, you'll see his namewhile serving with "another unit."

Enlisted mounted units, during the later part of the war were often dismounted and used as infantry...but that usually took place on a company level. (Officers and men were treated differently.)

In the case of the Regiment Garde du Corps (there is only -one- regiment in the Prussian Army with that title, and the "Garde du Corps" is not a larger formation) all of the various companies and squadrons returned home to Potsdam at war's end. During the Spartickust revolt in Berlin in the early days following the end of the war, the "Reds" took over the Imperial Palace, the G.d.C. stables and other parts of Berlin. The G.d.C. was involved in the fighting in Berlin, and operated as a large sized unit (at least several companies in size) until the revolt was quelled and some semblance of order was maintined in Berlin during 1919.

Now...if anyone does have the book on GMVK recipients, could they check to see if there are any recipients for that award, that were members of the G.d.C. ? If they received the award while with another unit (likely to be the case) they'd have been returned to their home depot at war's end and mustered out there.

It doesn't matter if there are two or more recipients, a short list of two or three candidates is better than having no list at all. Narrowing down the possibilities is far better than not trying at all.

Les

[Stogieman]

The depot system as you have stated above cannot be taken as a hard and fast rule. I have a Milit?r-Pass here right now that the gefreiter entered in an Infantry unit, saw extensive action with same then transferred into an aviation unit where he spent the rest of the war. When mustered out, he was processed and stamped out as the aviation unit, not the regimental depot for the infantry unit.....

[David Gregory]

The depot system as you have stated above cannot be taken as a hard and fast rule. I have a Milit?r-Pass here right now that the gefreiter entered in an Infantry unit, saw extensive action with same then transferred into an aviation unit where he spent the rest of the war. When mustered out, he was processed and stamped out as the aviation unit, not the regimental depot for the infantry unit.....

I agree with Rick.

The few hundred Milit?rp?sse I have show that men could be discharged from service by any number of units, although the Ersatz or depot unit that they first served with was often the last unit to which they were attached in many cases.

The issue is complicated by men who originally joined units that no longer existed at the war's end and those returning from captivity, who were usually processed by an Abwicklungs- or Heimkehrerstelle or transit camp (DULAG/Durchgangslager).

It would still be worth checking any Garde du Corps history, since the bestowal of an award held in such high esteem will almost certainly find mention, particularly as the unit would have an interest in being associated with the exploits of one of its former members.

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello everyone:

Here are some numbers regarding the total WWI GMVK awards to the 1st Garde Division and the 2nd Garde Division:

1st Garde-Division (64 total):

1. Garde-Regt. z. Fu?: 18

2. Garde-Regt. z. Fu?: 16

3. Garde-Regt. z. Fu?: 19

4. Garde-Regt. z. Fu?: 11

2nd Garde-Division (26 total):

Garde-Gren.-Regt. Nr. 1: 2

Garde-Gren.-Regt. Nr. 2: 7

Garde-Gren.-Regt. Nr. 3: 8

Garde-Gren.-Regt. Nr. 4: 9

Thus, we have a total of 90 awards for these two Divisions under the Garde-Corps-Depot. Unfortunately, any indentification of a specific individual who could have been the recipient of the award shown above would be impossible without more specific information. This information is from Herr Geile's 1997 publication which shows awards broken-down by unit (most helpful!). Other resorces are Ophaus (1936) which is an alphabetical listing, and Patzwall (1986) which lists the award recipients by date of award and alphabetically. There is another book by Nickel (1938), and one by Fischer (1960), but I do not have a copy of those.

I hope that this information is helpful!

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Schießplatzmeister]

Dear Les:

By the way, that is a really nice group because the GMVK appears to be genuine! It is a piece made for a group for everyday wear of course, but genuine pieces of these are not common at all. Usually, one runs across various and sundry MODERN copies which are garbage. I can't wait to see the reverse of this particular piece.

Thanks,

"SPM"

[Les]

Dear Les:

By the way, that is a really nice group because the GMVK appears to be genuine! It is a piece made for a group for everyday wear of course, but genuine pieces of these are not common at all. Usually, one runs across various and sundry MODERN copies which are garbage. I can't wait to see the reverse of this particular piece.

Thanks,

"SPM"

"SPM"

Thanks! Even if it's not possible to identify the individual, knowing how many GMVKs were awarded to enlisted members of Garde units is interesting to me for reasons I won't elaborate on.

When my friend has a chance to move and open the two cases, I'll see if I can get a photo of the reverse. I had the chance ot handle it a year or so ago, and recall it was well mounted with no label on the back to indicate (to the unitiated and don't have one of the "rings" Rick wears and weilds while summoning up the arcane) the firm that mounted the medals on the bar.

Les

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello again Les:

I have of course the names of the recipients and the dates concerning their GMVK awards (has nothing to do with the date of the specific action which led to the award however!). I have both volumes of "Das Ehrenbuch der Garde. Die preu?ische Garde im Weltkrieg 1914-1919" coming shortly. So, if any further information is needed, don't hesitate to ask.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Stogieman]

SPM, thanks for adding these details! Well Les, you have a one in ninety shot!! That's a pretty narrow field....... !!

[Les]

I wasn't expecting to come up with an ID for my friend, but was wondering if the list of potential candidates was going to be a short one (less than five) or longer (ten or more).

I don't know what the statistics are for the regular line units, but I have a hunch the garde units by the raw numbers got more of these. That's not saying the garde units were braver, but through the way awards were granted.

Normally an enlisted man was decorated on the recommendation of his commanding officer who usually had to witness whatever it was and put a recommendation in. During the later part of the war, NCO's often led companies and junior officers were in short supply for regular units. The officer to enlisted ratio in garde units tended to be a bit higher, officer losses replaced sooner, and units brought up to full strength sooner than the regular units, which means that an enlisted type had a better chance of being seen "doing something" or being recommended. That doesn't nessarily mean Garde units were better (although these units did try to get the best men available) or braver mind you which the raw numbers might suggest at first glance.

The Garde du Corps was Willy's favorite unit, and after the 1914 Ausmarch into Belgium and France were sent East to Russia. Late in war (espcially by 1918) cav units were being used as dismounted infantry and sent west to serve in the trenches. I suspect the "GdC" guys might have felt they had something to proove to the rest of the army and to justify being the proverbial apple of Willy's eye. Perhaps they felt they had to try harder (Wir geben uns mehr Muehe) given their preferential pre-war status, and so forth?

Again, many thanks for the statistics even if it's narrowed down to less than a hundred men out of circa 1700 or so? ;-)

Les

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello again everyone:

I must appologize, for in my haste, I listed 18 GMVK awards for the 1. Garde-Regt. z. Fu? for WWI. There were actually only 16 awards for WWI, and there were 2 awards in 1866!

I will now list the rest of the WWI awards for the "Independent" Garde Divisions (some of which may have been considered part of the "Garde du Corps" during WWI at various times). Note that I believe most of these units were not considered "Garde du Corps" except possibly the Garde-F?silier-Regt. and the Lehr-Inf.-Regt. which I believe were part of the 1. Garde Division prior to the Weltkrieg.

Garde-F?silier-Regt. : 5

5. Garde-Regt. z. Fu?: 11

Garde-Gren.-Regt. Nr. 5: 6

6. Garde-Inf.-Regt.: 9

7. Garde-Inf.-Regt. : 7

Lehr-Inf.-Regt. : 2

Note that I have not included awards for the various other units attached to the 1st and 2nd Garde-Divisions such as Kavallerie, Feldartillerie, Fu?artillerie, etc., etc. It is interesting to note the years of award for the total of 128 WWI awards for the above-listed units and the 1. Garde-Division and 2. Garde-Division:

1914: 0

1915: 0

1916: 0

1917: 12

1918: 116

Does this indicate an increase in brave deeds toward the end of the war? More troops in battle? I would surmise that the same deed that earned a soldier an EKII in late 1914, would earn him a GMVK in 1918. Of course, in order to be eligible for the GMVK, I believe that a soldier first had to have received the EKII and EKI in theory (I am sure there were instances where awards were made simultaneously for extremely brave deeds!). Just like the Royal Hohenzollern House Order Knight with swords awards for Officers, in 1917 and 1918, the "flood gates" opened. It seems as though political/patriotic considerations made the odds much more favorable for awards to be granted as the war continued. We must keep in mind that this doesn't diminish the importance or esteem of the award however!

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Les]

(Bumped back up.)

I -may- have a chance of (finally) getting this bar.... No details about this until after it happens.

Does anyone else have photos (period ones showing the GMVK being worn on a bar, or photos of actual bars with GMVK mounted) of the GMVK worn mounted on a bar? Typically, (regulations specify this) the GMVK is worn with the ribbon worn through a buttonhole of the uniform tunic and the medal hanging from the ribbon. Wearing the GMVK on a bar, and not through the buttonhole suggests this bar was worn on civilian clothing.

I've seen more than a few GMVKs in photos showing wear from buttonholes and cased original medals hanging on the ribbon. I've started looking for photos of other GMVKs being worn on a bar in the last few days and so far, haven't found any. Chances are that examples worn on a bar are going to be much rarer than original "ribbon/buttonhole" versions.

Anyone have any other photos they can share?

Les

[Guest Rick Research]

Regulations placed the GMVK behind the EK2, so wear OFF a bar was more a personal statement emphasizing its worth than actual statutory requirement at any time from before the Second Empire to during the Third.

This is an old scan, gotta do another one on the new Epson. I had long thought from the oddly awkward pose and the awards all unnaturally squashed into the overly extreme closeup frame that Gore Vidal here was some sort of disabled veteran slid into clothes (the shooting lanyard is a weird touch) but in contemplating this over time, the small size and number of dark cloth covered buttons on his matching dark color standing collar cassock (?) now seem more likely some sort of clercal garb to me. Not a Roman collar up there, so not a Catholic priest-- maybe a Protestant minister? A self portrait with the camera on his lap?

No name or date.

(But imagine how many boring old EK/HKX pairs "coulda been..." )

[Chris Boonzaier]

Does anyone know if wearing the shooting lanyard in this pic makes him a member of some uniformed formation... or just for the pic?