Serbia Serbia / Order of St. Sava Commander 1st Type “M“ ?

[obi007]

Hi everyone , seems to me this order of St .Sava has been attach from two parts ??? Correct me if I wrong.??? http://www.liverpoolmedals.com/Order-of-St.-Sava-Commander-Ist-Type-M.html

[Rogi]

I've been thinking about this one for a while, it says in the description it is a "replacement" issue, unless we have info. about Replacement issues in a book somewhere or someone knows extensive knowledge about it I'd avoid buying it, or ask for more pictures near the icon and Monogram M, if it is a bad job and not professional it should be easy to make out at the attaching joints.

I would assume (although could be wrong) that there should be some form of mark to designated it as a replacement, similar with soviet awards with duplicates.

If anything is off, I would say the M monogram, it looks crooked.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Rogi

[paja]

I believe that you're right. It looks like someone just put central (back) medallion from the 1st type order (Scheid maybe?) on a typical Huguenin made order. Also Rogi mentioned that they've marked it as a replacement, I think that the Chancellery for decorations would issue "normal" order as a duplicate for example regular Huguenin, not a combination of a couple of different types. I could understand the opposite situation, if medallion with the year 1883 was applied on the first type order. For example Chancellery had some amount of orders with monogram on the back side and instead of getting rid of them when Karađorđević's came to power they just replaced the back medallions.

[Rogi]

Just an adition, if you draw a straight line from the center of the enameleded blue on the top and bottom, it should align with the cross in the King Milan monogram (or at least be a little bit off center depending on how hard its had a life). In this case it does not, and it looks very crooked.

I would definatley ask for more details from the site owner about that perticuler St Sava. All the info. the better, because its an immense price for that order.

[new world]

I actually had a discussion with the dealer about this order a while ago. I told him about my concerns, but he did nothing to change the listing or discontinue it.

Based on previous bad experience with this dealer - when he sold entirely fake or constructed from real/counterfeit parts high level awards - I would advise to stay away from this award.

There are several questionable items on that site. One is Serbian medal bar with Bulgarian Bravery Soldier Cross from Balkan wars/ WWI. This combination is impossible, as Serbia and Bulgaria were enemies then. Again I alerted the dealer and he keeps selling bad medal bar.

Edited May 13, 2013 by new world

[obi007]

I got another one please have a look !!! http://www.shoulder-to-shoulder.net/items/1355&p=3

[paul wood]

Just a military white eagle lacking lacking 1883 reverse and in incorrect box not much use unless you have a spare reverse.

Paul

[paja]

I have never seen White Eagle like that before, neither with swords nor without them. Any thoughts on the producer? Considering that I do not recognize the producer I can't claim anything about the box, but take a look at the last picture, the order seems to fit perfectly in it. Maybe it was custom made. Can anyone ID the producer of the box (based on the logo)? British?

[paul wood]

The box is British I can make out Royal arms and London W. Could be a British made copy (as quite a few Brits received the order) but can't be sure without clearer picture of inside of the case.

Paul

[Trooper_D]

Any thoughts on the producer?

The label inside the box is that of the Goldsmiths & Silversmiths Co. Ltd of 112 Regent St., London. According to this site,

http://www.silvercollection.it/ENGLAGOLDSMITHS&SILVERSMITHS.html

they were established in 1880 and merged with Garrards in 1952.

[paul wood]

Thanks for that. They are not known as order makers so it maybe they just adapted a case.

Paul

[paja]

Thanks for sharing that with us. So just as I suspected the box was probably custom made. But still who might be the producer of the order itself? It's quite different from the other producers known to me. Could it be that the order was also custom made by some British producer? I saw just a couple of Sorlini made eagles, all without swords, and they also looked very different...

[paja]

What do you gentlemen think about this one? Differs from typical Bertrand and Huguenin types in many details. I don't remember seeing a crown like that on Serbian decoration before and the swords look like the Austrian type used for example on Takovo Cross. Images are from ebay where it got sold last month (I hope no one will mind me using them).

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2013/post-7937-0-49811700-1368640610.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2013/post-7937-0-08288300-1368640635.jpg

Edited May 15, 2013 by paja

[Rogi]

From a quick glance on it, it looks like a lot of super glue (or some sort of similar glue) was used on the back of the two swords to affix them onto the order.

The Crown somewhat appears dented on the left side, and there seems to be too tan looking things that attach the eagle to the rest of the order, which are usually silver gilt and curved.(on the rear picture)

There also appears to be two shades of white enamel, one brighter shade on the bottom and a lighter semi-beige tinted shade on the wings (but then again it could just be the lighting used in the shot :S)

P.S. Theres also no crown on the eagles, which is usually there on the order. at least I cant see one :S

Edited May 16, 2013 by Rogi

[paja]

Igor, thanks for sharing your opinion. I agree about the glue, I did not notice it before, sloppy job. But maybe the glue was used because the swords were loose. On the image bellow I have marked two small cylindrical parts which I suspect were used in the first place to hold the swords. Crowns on the eagles can't be seen because of the swords, but they are visible from the back.

Medallions are a real puzzle to me, just look how small are the cross and the letters, also look at the shapes under the red enamel, really unusual. The crown looks a bit like a crown I saw on one Greek Order of the Redeemer, and it's and the floral motifs on the swords go very well together. I agree that it's dented to the left, but this could be a consequence of extensive use, fall or something similar. It also looks a bit smaller compared to other crowns used on this decoration.

All in all a very unusual order.

Regards,

Radmilo

[geneva teacher]

I actually had a discussion with the dealer about this order a while ago. I told him about my concerns, but he did nothing to change the listing or discontinue it.

Based on previous bad experience with this dealer - when he sold entirely fake or constructed from real/counterfeit parts high level awards - I would advise to stay away from this award.

There are several questionable items on that site. One is Serbian medal bar with Bulgarian Bravery Soldier Cross from Balkan wars/ WWI. This combination is impossible, as Serbia and Bulgaria were enemies then. Again I alerted the dealer and he keeps selling bad medal bar.

Hello New World !

Serbia and Bulgaria were not enemies during the First Balkan War : the siege of Adrianople was a Bulgarian victory thanks to the Serbian guns - and soldiers - which were sent there, and Adrianople woudn't have been a Bulgarian city, even for a very short time, without Serbia's help. You can see today at the National Military Museum of Belgrade the white flag of the Turkish general who preferred to surrender to the Serbians than to the Bulgarians. Here is a nice picture, too :

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Serbian_artilery_at_Adrianopoli.png?uselang=en

I have no idea about this medal bar, but it was possible for many Serbian soldiers to get Bulgarian Crosses for their bravery during this siege.

Edited May 17, 2013 by geneva teacher

[paja]

Hello New World !

Serbia and Bulgaria were not enemies during the First Balkan War : the siege of Adrianople was a Bulgarian victory thanks to the Serbian guns - and soldiers - which were sent there, and Adrianople woudn't have been a Bulgarian city, even for a very short time, without Serbia's help. You can see today at the National Military Museum of Belgrade the white flag of the Turkish general who preferred to surrender to the Serbians than to the Bulgarians. Here is a nice picture, too :

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Serbian_artilery_at_Adrianopoli.png?uselang=en

I have no idea about this medal bar, but it was possible for many Serbian soldiers to get Bulgarian Crosses for their bravery during this siege.

Greetings geneva teacher and welcome to the forum,

Although it is true what you are saying new world is actually right because the medal is from WW1, year 1915 is inscribed on it under the words "For Bravery".

The white flag that you have mentioned can be seen here: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/57266-exhibition-100-years-since-the-battle-of-kumanovo/?p=531505

Kind regards,

Radmilo