For Research Baden Medic Cross

[redeagleorder]

Hello gentlemen,

I showed this medal bar some time ago with the Baden medic cross. Upon further research I have been unable to find a picture of one in this zinc colour, all of those I have found being gold in colour. It does not appear, from close inspection, that this cross was ever gilded. The only material I can find on this is that they were made from either goldbronze or Weißmetall vergoldet (if someone could explain these terms to me better I would be grateful). Does anyone know of a version like mine (perhaps a very late or post-war issue?)

Thanks

Matthew

Edited June 8, 2013 by redeagleorder

[Jason]

Lovely bar Matthew!

[saschaw]

It has lost its gold finish, that's all. Most of these were made from "Kriegsmetall" (a zinc alloy), the earlier ones real bronze gilt.

Hope to have more information in autummn, when a great book on Baden awards (new edition of the "Volle") is published.

It's yet announced here: http://cms.orden-der-welt.de/index.php/en/sale/reference-books/complete-stock?sea=11-4

Edited June 9, 2013 by saschaw

[M Hunter]

Matthew,

This is a very nice medal bar. I like it very much.

Best wishes

Matt

[Ulsterman]

Outstanding Weimar DRK bar! I love it.

[redeagleorder]

Thanks for the comments! Saschaw, I've looked over the cross pretty well and there is absolutely no trace of any gilding, even the part of the smaller ring which is usually under the ribbon. The only gilded piece of the medal is the upper ring which attaches the medal to the bar, which is completely gilded. If the gilding had worn off the medal so completely surely at least some of it would have gone from the upper ring as well?

Thanks a lot!

Matthew

[saschaw]

The loss of gilt is not due to wear, but to chemical reactions. The cross, including the small ring, is from a dirty zinc alloy, while the bigger ring isn't.

I wonder if the Voile book will have award numbers for these. One doesn't see them often, not the ones with the oak wreath, awarded for merits in enemy's countrys.

[redeagleorder]

Ah, that makes sense! So those crosses which still have most or all of their gilding left would seem to be the earlier versions made out of bronze, which doesn't react to the gilding. I agree with you, these crosses with the eichenkranz are not too common (I've been trying to find examples to compare to mine!). In the Hessenthal it says the wreath was awarded for service in 'Kriegsgebiete'. Does this refer to just the front line or were war zones defined as all occupied territory? For example, would a doctor working 50 miles behind the lines still be awarded a cross with the wreath?

Thanks,

Matthew

[saschaw]

From my understanding, "Kriegsgebiet" and "Feindesland" (enemy's country) are the same here, so someone being anywhere e.g. in France or Belgium, no matter how far behind the lines, would receive it with the wreath. Still much more crosses went to those that stayed at home.

Edited June 11, 2013 by saschaw

[Signalcorps45]

Hello to everyone,

So, this bar would be issued to an enlisted man who never left Germany?

Dean

[redeagleorder]

Hmmm, did Baden have a specific non-combatant ribbon for their medal? If not, its quite plausible that they used the same ribbon and the wearer didn't leave Germany. I believe Jason has an example with a Wurt. silver medal and the Hansa states seem to have done this...

As a side note, your cross is like mine in that it has lost of its gilding (although unlike mine traces can be seen on yours), but the upper ring is still fully gilded. Could you check the Baden medal for the hallmark along the rim to see if it is silver or not? It would be interesting to see if it was issued up to 1916 or later in the war and therefore chronologically closer to the medical cross.

[redeagleorder]

Just to show off mine again (hope you don't mind ). So according to the above information the one below is an early war issue cross:

[Jason]

Do you mean this one Matthew? The matching "south German" style ribbon bar came with it. Bought a loooong time ago from the Evil Rick....and vetted by the Good Rick

Cheers Jas

Edited June 11, 2013 by Jason

[dond]

Just to show off mine again (hope you don't mind ). So according to the above information the one below is an early war issue cross:

Could be a post war private purchase piece as well.

[redeagleorder]

@Jason. Yes thats the one. Thanks for showing it. I like non-combatant awards and it appears that some states did not use a special ribbon for them, so the only way to tell is the honour cross.

@Dond. Yes I suppose it could be...

[dond]

Can we see the reverse?

[saschaw]

So, this bar would be issued to an enlisted man who never left Germany?

Sorry Dean, but yours is a (nonsense combination?) fake bar by one of the usual ebay suspects, hagekna41.

We've talked about him many times, and the forums search will probably reveal some of the talks on his stuff.

@Dond. Yes I suppose it could be...

Don't see anything here that suggest a wearer copy. The cross is totally textbook, so probably from early/mid war era.

[Ulsterman]

Hmmmmmm....what is the thought behind Dean's combination being a fake? I would have looked at that and thought Baden lower middle class govt. clerk who got invalided home between 1914-1917 and then did DRK /relief work.

[Signalcorps45]

Sorry Dean, but yours is a (nonsense combination?) fake bar by one of the usual ebay suspects, hagekna41.

We've talked about him many times, and the forums search will probably reveal some of the talks on his stuff.

Don't see anything here that suggest a wearer copy. The cross is totally textbook, so probably from early/mid war era.

saschaw and Ulsterman,

I had to dig through some records but this bar was bought from hagekna41. I bought two bars from him one was a Bavarian which has already been outed as a fake and this one. Luckily I kept records of who I bought things from.

Dean

[saschaw]

Hmmmmmm....what is the thought behind Dean's combination being a fake? I would have looked at that and thought Baden lower middle class govt. clerk who got invalided home between 1914-1917 and then did DRK /relief work.

You're right, there's a possible explanation for almost every combination. That being odd or unusual wasn't my main point, but the origin was. I can hardly remember I saw any bar by above mentioned ebay seller hagekna41 that was authentic. And he sold many, many dozens in the last ten years....

This seller uses two names, the other being agle42. Same there, mostly standard combinations, but using fake ribbons. It's sad this seems to be profitable, but.... everyone who ever tried to sell single, unribboned mass awards, at least in Germany, knows it's so much easier to sell "nice" medal bars...

This one was bought by a friend some days ago, but he noticed before paying and refused the buy. Now it's offered again. The ribbons are modern fake ribbons, again.

Oh, and I don't even like their ribbon bars, which are sometimes that much standard I wouldn't even buy them if they were real - but they aren't.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/321144770481

http://www.ebay.de/itm/321154109089

Edited August 7, 2013 by saschaw