Turkey 1840 PALESTINE OTTOMAN BRITISH ACRE CITADEL MEDAL

[ray11]

While I am at it I am looking at 2 others and wonder if you would help.Also does anyone know what the wording is on them?

Edited August 20, 2013 by ray11

[paul wood]

on the side with the fortress of Akka is the date AH 1256 (1840) and below the Turkish inscription "The Country of Syria and the fortress of Akka".

Paul

[ray11]

on the side with the fortress of Akka is the date AH 1256 (1840) and below the Turkish inscription "The Country of Syria and the fortress of Akka".

Paul

Paul would you (well of course you would) have an idea of value? and thank you again.

[paul wood]

In reasonable condition bronze about £100, silver £200-300, gold £1,000

Paul

[demir]

Hi,

Beware of replica Akka medals, IMO it is always a good idea to weigh them:

AV: 29 mm 22.5 gr

AR: 29 mm 16 gr

AE: 29 mm 13.2 gr

Regards

Demir

Edited October 1, 2013 by demir

[paul wood]

Thank you Demir, most useful

[avsaribar]

Sorry to inform you but you can NOT understand the originality of Akka Medals ( And many more old medals from Period II Mahmud to first years of Abdulmecid ) by their weight .

[paul wood]

Thanks Avsar, what a pity.

Paul

[demir]

But at least it helps, and those are the official weights.

Apart from known characteristics of a medal I always check weights, if there is a difference within a reasonable amount because of the wear caused by handling and the years then there is no problem. Otherwise I will not buy it. This is what I do.

If one doesn't consider it an indication then there is no problem also.

Demir

Edited October 7, 2013 by demir

[paul wood]

Thanks for the clarification, I assume that the weights on the gold would be stricter (as it could cost the treasury a lot of money) while on the bronze I can imagine there could be some variation. As to wear having any significant effect on weight, surprisingly it does not. Having dealt with coins for over 40 years (medals and orders slightly less). The difference in weight between a heavily worn coin and a perfect coin is minimal 1% or less (however fire or water damage can affect the weight signifcantly).

Another question as there were a large number of Akka medals struck were they all produced at the same mints or were some produced in Misr and maybe other mints.

Paul

[avsaribar]

I am not talking about the wear caused by handling or time , this is %1 or %2 and acceptable.

What I am talking is the standardization . There is no standardization on the old Ottoman Medals . Maybe because of different mints , maybe because of different molds what ever..

For example , I saw 1831 Cami-i Nusret *Scutari* AR 12,80 Grams , 11,03 Grams , 13,10 grams , I saw reeded edge and plain edge... All original ...

The weight details in the book of Mr.Metin Erureten taken from Examples of 2 collectors collection , one of them Dr.Kazim ( He passed away ) and the other one i do not want to mention the name here now . So , yes they are original but they are what they have .. I mean compare all the weight details * OLD OTTOMAN MEDALS * with the details of the other book which was published by Ottoman Bank Pride and Privilege , History of Ottoman Orders medals and decorations you will see many different ( Not %1 to %2 Worn , time difference ) rates , so is the medals in one of the books are fake ? NO !!!

When you are buying , If you will decide only by weight for thoose old medals , you may miss a good opportunity to buy an Original Medal .

After eighteen sixties , seventies , lets say Sultan Abdulaziz period , the standardization came , so medals such as Plevne , Russian War , Big Imtiyaz , Liyakat , Cedid Girid or 1892 Yemen and much more you can check the weight and decide ....

[Ulsterman]

Cool! So, what sorts of fakes are there? I know these were awarded to British navy men, but that's about it.

[demir]

Hi,

According Mr. Edhem Eldem (The History of Ottoman Orders and Medals p. 140):

“This medal (AKKA 1840) have been struck in “Istanbul” (I say Istanbul since he does not say anything about other Mints in the Empire, and Medals as far as I know had been struck in Istanbul - demir). According to a document dating 1257/1841 a total of 6 brilliant and 6000 gold and silver medals had been struck. (So they were all struck at the same Mint- demir)

The British Ambassador received 3 brilliant medals for Adm. Stopford, Commodore Napier and Major Charles Smith and 65 gold Medals for Captains and Commanders, 1002 silver Medals for other Officers and 11081 copper medals for soldiers and other ranks. (British Ambassador was in Istanbul, I don't think that Medals were brought from another part of the Empire- demir)

English sources have more and detailed information about this medal, especially the work of Douglas-Morris is very rich.”

The reason why I shared a summary of what Mr. Eldem wrote is; he is well known expert on the subject.

Weights I gave in my earlier thread was from Mr. Erüreten’s book (Ottoman Medals and Orders, p.179

Ottoman Mint in Istanbul was responsible for the medals and I don’t think that they struck medals in different weights because I don’t think that they used a different die for every struck of the same medal.

According to Mr.Pere (Coins of the Ottomans, Istanbul 1968, p. 303):

“AV 29 mm 22,5 gr. He did not give any measurement for silver and copper.”

If we accept the diameter of the Medal given by these experts why don’t we accept the weights.

Sultan Abdülmecid I (1839-1861), enforced the Tashih-i Ayar (correcting the value of the money- correcting the difference between the market value and official value of coins because of the weight value of the silver and gold) which brought the standardization of the monetary system in the 5^th year of his reign. So according to this argument the coins and medals may/must not be same weight because there was no standard before 1844, but let us not forget that the Ferman (Sultans decree, order) about this standardization had been issued in 1840 and applied in 1944. On the other hand, 1841 document says that the medals were ready for distribution. IMHO the Ottoman Mint did not need to wait the coming standardization of the monetary system in order to struck a Medal if they had the diameter and the weight in their hands.

Regards

Demir

Edited October 7, 2013 by demir

[avsaribar]

Dear Demir , You wrote ;

" Ottoman Mint in Istanbul was responsible for the medals and I don’t think that they struck medals in different weights because I don’t think that they used a different die for every struck of the same medal. "

But you are wrong because you can see the below examples ; ( There are more as i mentioned on my previous post ... but i just wrote the below ones )

Medal Name : Mr.Eldem's Book - The History of Orders and Medals : Metin Erureten's Ottoman Medals and Orders :

Ayasofya Tamiri AV 66,70 gram ( Page 155 ) AV 62,50 gram ( Page 186 ) DIFFERENCE : 4,2 GRAM

AR 37,40 gram AR 40,3 gram DIFFERENCE : 2,7 GRAM

1850 Tanzimat-i Hayriye AE 387,09 gram ( Page 171 ) AE 524 gram ( Page 188 ) DIFFERENCE : 136,91 GRAM

1833 Hunkar Iskelesi AR 16,04 gram ( Page 148 ) AR 12,3 gram (Page 167 ) DIFFERENCE : 3,74 GRAM

1844 Tahsis-i Ayar AV 50mm 60,79 gram (Page 154 ) AV 50mm 71,8 gram ( Page 181 ) DIFFERENCE : 11,01 GRAM

1840 St. Jean D Acre AV 20,93 gram ( Page 151 ) AV 22,50 gram ( Page 179 ) DIFFERENCE : 1,57 GRAM

AR 14,66 gram AR 16 gram DIFFERENCE : 1,34 GRAM

SILISTRE AV 35,87 gram AV 37,60 gram DIFFERENCE : 1,73 GRAM

KARS AV 35,9 gram AV 38 gram DIFFERENCE : 2,10 GRAM

I do NOT need to write the above information from their book because what i wrote is directly related with my experience but now everybody can see that 2 Major books and all different weights !

Ferman of the Abdulmecid 1844 COULD NOT BRING THE STANDARTIZATION .

Edited October 7, 2013 by avsaribar

[paul wood]

Sounds like there was a bit of profiteering going on in the mint, presumably the profit on the lighter weight silver and gold pieces went into the pockets of the mint officials. We had the same problem in England in the reign of Henry I, but he cured the problem at the assizes of Winchester in 1124 by emasculating all those moneyers who were producing under weight coinage.

Paul