Saxony Civil Order of the Kingdom of Saxony - Knight Cross I. class with Swords

[tifes]

Hello gents,

I would like to figure out the exact origin of this decoration. It's clearly Civil Order of the Kingdom of Saxony, knight cross I. class with swords (for natives, Inländer). It should be the 1st Model till 1912 (painted medaillon) but it`s not in Gold but in Silver gilded. I have got the information that this decoration was made of gilded Silver in the period 1905-1911, but maybe this information is not correct. So basically there are four options:
1. just collector´s copy (it doesn´t seem so, enamels and overall production are in great quality)
2. original decoration of 1st Model made of Silver in period 1905-1911
3. original decoration of 1st Model but so-called "second piece" (before 1905???) made by recipient privately for everyday wear (Zweit - bzw. Tragestück)
4. original decoration of 2nd Model made after 1912 (probably during WWI)

This is not really my cup of tea so I turn upon you with the hope. Every respond is appreciated. Thank you in advance

Regards,

tifes

[VtwinVince]

Looks like good quality, better than the average Spangenstueck. Are there any markings on the edge of the bottom cross arm?

[Beau Newman]

If I'm not mistaken, Saxon orders were returned upon the death of the recipient. Might this be a case of a returned pre-war non swords award that was recycled with swords added during the war?

[Stogieman]

I know it's been awhile, but I have absolutely no problem with this award as an original piece. I do not believe it to be a "wearer's copy". Frankly, in all my years chasing Saxon awards, I never saw a single example of this award that was not original...... and precious few at that.

Here's my old First Class for comparison

Edited September 21, 2013 by Stogieman

[tifes]

Thank you for all responds. There is a marking "S" on the bottom cross arm and the weight is 27,5g. By "wearer`s copy" I have meant the original decoration of time but privately bought by recipient. This was common practice in Austria-Hungary and all silver made any Order`s decorations are always of this origin. Reason was quite simple. Originally awarded piece was always in 18k. gold and it was well preserved and worn only by unique occasions. So I thought that this might be the same case. Decoration belongs to one of my friends and it is in his private collection. It was acquired many years ago from the very old collection. There is a story behind that decoration was awarded to one Saxon officer who was active combatant in Austrian-Prussian War of 1866. He settled down in Prague afterwards.

This is obviously 1st model with painted central medallion. That one on the attached photos from "Stogieman" is 2nd model with coats of arms put on the medallion. It should be WWI production. The only thing that I cannot figure out by "my decoration" is the fact that it´s made of silver not gold as it was common.

[Deruelle]

Hi Yo uhave got a very very nice medal. Thanks for sharing it with us.

During the Austrian Prussian war in 1866, only 23 crosses were awarded.

The S hallmark is for the word Silber

Christophe

[Stogieman]

I'm not sure I agree with the "S" being for silber..... Scharffenberg used that mark extensively. I've had dozens and dozens of Scharffenberg crosses with this mark

The reason I posted the WW1 example is I thought someone would pick up on the fact that it came in a pre-1900 case.

Your award would have come in a similar case.

I think when you use the phrase "wearer's copy", most imperial collectors go to a piece that is not silver or gold; but rather in bronze of significantly lesser quality and materials. At least I still do that.

A privately purchased original piece; as far as I am concerned, would still be an original cross.

[tifes]

Hi,

once again thank you for all info that you have shared with me. I really appreciate it. Imperial German states are not my area. I now something little but it cannot be compared to your knowledge. I am aimed at Austria-Hungary and I was also using parallel to this decoration which probably doesn't work in all aspects. In Austria-Hungary all decoration of Orders before 1914 had been made of gold and in the WWI period mostly in gilded bronze as gold became de facto source of war financing.

Decorations in silver had been privately purchased pieces. If they had been made till 1918 they are considered original. This is the common case with Franz Joseph Order, Iron Crown Order and Leopold Order. Such a pieces are usually called "second piece" (in german Zweitstück or Tragestück). The term "wearer`s copy" is not used indeed.

Might it be somehow possible to get this Knight cross, I. class with swords in silver directly from Order`s Chancellery (or any other authority responsible for awarding)? In Austria-Hungary such a possibility would be excluded. Regulations were strict and all decoration had to be of gold. If this is the case also in Kingdom of Saxony then I have privately purchased Knight cross I. class with swords but it must be seen as original.

Thank you also for shedding some light concerning "S" mark. Concerning case, as I wrote above, I am sorry "Stogieman" but I am not able to recognize types of cases. Nevertheless I thank you for photos and info about it.

You helped me a lot. Thanx a lot.

Regards,

tifes

[Yankee]

Thank you for all responds. There is a marking "S" on the bottom cross arm and the weight is 27,5g. By "wearer`s copy" I have meant the original decoration of time but privately bought by recipient. This was common practice in Austria-Hungary and all silver made any Order`s decorations are always of this origin. Reason was quite simple. Originally awarded piece was always in 18k. gold and it was well preserved and worn only by unique occasions. So I thought that this might be the same case. Decoration belongs to one of my friends and it is in his private collection. It was acquired many years ago from the very old collection. There is a story behind that decoration was awarded to one Saxon officer who was active combatant in Austrian-Prussian War of 1866. He settled down in Prague afterwards.

This is obviously 1st model with painted central medallion. That one on the attached photos from "Stogieman" is 2nd model with coats of arms put on the medallion. It should be WWI production. The only thing that I cannot figure out by "my decoration" is the fact that it´s made of silver not gold as it was common.

Strange that the Saxon officer would receive a silver- gilt knight 1st class for that time period. As far as I know all early Saxon Civil Merit orders with swds should be in gold. According to Weber, Arnold & Keil all knight 1st class with swds of the 1st type period 1866-1912 were awarded in gold. The amount awarded 197. However knight 1st class of the 1st type without swds were given both in gold & silver-gilt. From 1815 to 1912 1937 were awarded in gold & 356 in silver-gilt. Interesting to note that the silver-gilt ones are more rare and yet they are cheaper. I suspect yours was manufactured around 1900-1912 just no figures on the amount handed out. A cross over between the two types....

[tifes]

Thank you "Yankee" for your opinion. It might be the case indeed. I have also tried to figure out whether the story about Saxon officer and 1866 War might be true.

[Yankee]

Thank you "Yankee" for your opinion. It might be the case indeed. I have also tried to figure out whether the story about Saxon officer and 1866 War might be true.

Hi Tifes

I believe Beau hit the nail on the head. It would be the most likely scenario as stated in post 3. Please note the vast majority of swords given for the 1866 War were Austrian in design. Rothe had won a large contract, there are a few Saxon type from the period but they are rare. The hilt and blade are nearly identical, what sets them apart is the guard. Rothe type is narrow, you can almost think of it being delicate compared to your wider Saxon sword guard. you have a nice genuine badge that one seldom comes across.

[tifes]

Thank you Yankee, all what you wrote is really helpfull. I have never had problems with originality of this decoration, because the production finesse is great. I just wanted to know the possible origin.

It seems so that story about Saxon officer and War of 1866 doesn´t sound very real. I didn´t know that Austrian Rothe won the contract in those years for swords. Austria-Hungary introduced sword for personal bravery against enemy in cases of some decorations (not all of them) only in December 1916. Swords had been placed on band or on the decoration itself (it depends on). So I couldn´t compare swords (from Rothe or anyone else) of some of my Austrian decorations from that period with this Saxon one, because there is nothing to compare. Your information is therefore very helpfull.

To conclude somehow coming what you and others wrote:

It´s original decoration of the 1st. Model in gilded silver which was returened probably after the dead of recipient back to Order´s Chancellory and afterwards bestowed to another recipient in war (1914-1918???) but already with swords (Saxon production with wide guards). It might be also 1900-1912 production with swords added later on for the same recipient for his bravery/meritorious acts in War 1914-1918.

[Yankee]

Thank you Yankee, all what you wrote is really helpfull. I have never had problems with originality of this decoration, because the production finesse is great. I just wanted to know the possible origin.

It seems so that story about Saxon officer and War of 1866 doesn´t sound very real. I didn´t know that Austrian Rothe won the contract in those years for swords. Austria-Hungary introduced sword for personal bravery against enemy in cases of some decorations (not all of them) only in December 1916. Swords had been placed on band or on the decoration itself (it depends on). So I couldn´t compare swords (from Rothe or anyone else) of some of my Austrian decorations from that period with this Saxon one, because there is nothing to compare. Your information is therefore very helpfull.

To conclude somehow coming what you and others wrote:

It´s original decoration of the 1st. Model in gilded silver which was returened probably after the dead of recipient back to Order´s Chancellory and afterwards bestowed to another recipient in war (1914-1918???) but already with swords (Saxon production with wide guards). It might be also 1900-1912 production with swords added later on for the same recipient for his bravery/meritorious acts in War 1914-1918.

Hi Tifes

I think the first scenario in your concluding remarks would be the more likely of the two. Still there is that possibility that the recipient won the swords at a later date. I didn't know the Austrians instituted some swords almost at the end of the Empire. Have seen the crossed swords on higher grades to the Leopold Order but not to a knight. Same with the Iron Crown but again no swords to the 3rd class badge. Is it accurate to think none were ever awarded in the lower class or they do exist and are just extremely rare? A few of the German States had put in place a complex award system for swords which can be a study in itself.