Soviet Red Banners "3" and "4" for review

[Jani Tiainen]

Dear Friends,

These are very tricky.

I would be pleased to hear your comments on these two red banners. I have asked two friends already and their opinion differs - One says the "3" is copy and "4" original - the other one vica versa. I personally like "4" more... but lets hear you.

First: Red Banner "3" #4381

[Jani Tiainen]

Close up of the number plate on obverse and reverse. There is a faint square line that makes me believe the "number"-section might have been added to regular Red Banner decoration (red arrow)

[Jani Tiainen]

Red Banner "4" #332

I would appreciate any help and will post better pictures when needed.

Jani Tiainen

[JapanX]

I have asked two friends already and their opinion differs - One says the "3" is copy and "4" original - the other one vica versa.

That`s a good one Jani!

Why your friends think that these are fakes?

Any arguments?

[paul wood]

Can't see anything obviously wrong with them, the trouble is many of the so called experts have no idea, which is why they take dozens of photographs of the items when they are viewing them. Some of them also tell everybody an item is a fake and then buy it cheap and reveal that is is genuine later

Paul

[JapanX]

Can't see anything obviously wrong with them...

Maybe this is because they are originals

3rd cartouche was made by Krasnokamsk Mint in the first half of 1945.

4th cartouche was made by the same Krasnokamsk Mint somewhere near the end of 1944.

Not really top notch photos, but it could be that red enamel was relaid (on rays of the star and probably on banner) of 3rd cartouche.

Edited September 27, 2013 by JapanX

[Rogi]

Can't see anything obviously wrong with them, the trouble is many of the so called experts have no idea, which is why they take dozens of photographs of the items when they are viewing them. Some of them also tell everybody an item is a fake and then buy it cheap and reveal that is is genuine later

Paul

Paul has summed it up perfectly more dealers do this than collectors that I've seen

People who don't enjoy the hobby and just want to make a quick profit.

[Jani Tiainen]

Thank you,

No they did not tell me why they think they were fakes/originals - I did not offer to sell them so I dont think they tried to fool me but who knows.

My best source is the excellent web site: http://mondvor.narod.ru/ordpage.htm but these mixed opinions made me suspicous.

Best reproductions are just so high quality that it is difficult to get 100% answer from the pictures at the internet.

Thank you again.,

Jani

[JapanX]

If we will be using MonDvor classification, then 3rd cartouche is Type 2 variant 3 on this page http://mondvor.narod.ru/ORBan7.htm

and 4th cartouche is Type 2 variant 1 on this page http://mondvor.narod.ru/ORBan8.htm

It`s not only the cartouche that makes this or that cartouche piece original (although it is no doubt one of the most important features).

Secondary features (like correct (correct for this type of cartouche) mark style, number style, form of torch, etc ... ) also very important.

[JapanX]

Let`s take a look at some of these fakes

Fake 3rd cartouche

[JapanX]

[JapanX]

Fake 4th cartouche

[JapanX]

[JapanX]

[JapanX]

Another 4th

[JapanX]

Different manufacturer

[JapanX]

Another 3rd cartouche (looks like in this case fake cartouche was added to original order )

[Jani Tiainen]

Thanks for the pictures,

Some time ago - 2-3 years (?) there was an article at the BDOS (German Orders & Medals society) journal about using X-rays to detect "added" numbers on red banners. I cant find the magazine right now but I think strong x-ray machine was actually very good tool to see under the enamel and detect manufacturing details. Does anybody remember this article?

Jani

[JapanX]

I guess x-ray machine is one of the possibilities...

Fortunately this super rarity can be recognized without X-ray

[JapanX]

Sweet!

[JapanX]

[JapanX]

Good tight hand

[JapanX]

Output of fake-making "company" Duplicate

[JapanX]

[JapanX]

Just tell the number - they have it!