North American Indian Chiefs Medal

[Veteran]

This large (3"+) silver medal was awarded in 1814 to Friendly Indian Chiefs who, in 1811, helped the British Forces repulse the American attempt to invade Canada; It was described by Jamieson and illustrated (fig.24)

It has been very much worn and polished.....

Does anyone know how many were issued ?

Every bit of information will be gratefully received.

Best regards to all

Veteran

Edited October 13, 2013 by Veteran

[IrishGunner]

Very interesting piece... I hope someone has more information.

Where did you get this piece?

[Stuka f]

First one I see!

Thanks for sharing.

Belgians had a similar medal for tribe chiefs in Congo.

They were given in a later periode, from end 19 th century untill 1950 and fetch prices like 250 to 500 euro.

cheers

|<ris

[Laurence Strong]

Hi Not a whole lot of info

1814. Obverse, bust with older head of king to right laureated, draped in an ermine mantle, secured in front with a large bow of ribbon, wearing the collar and jewel of St. George; legend, Georgius III Dei Gratia Britanniarum Rex F. D .; under bust, T. Wyon, Jun. S. Reverse, the royal arms of Great Britain with shield of pretense of Hanover, surmounted by a crown and crested helmet, all encircled by ribbon of the Garter and supporters, below a ribbon with motto, Dieu et Mon Droit; above ribbon, a rose, thistle, and shamrock; behind helmet on both sides, a display of acanthus leaves; in exergue, 1814 . Silver; size, 2 3/8 to 4 11/16 in.

Apparently three different sizes, what are the dimensions of yours?

Larry

[Veteran]

Thank you for the information.

Larry : This is the larger size approx. 75 millimeters. The suspension loop hax been obviously replace by local a local craftsman.

Irish Gunner : ilt was bought from a dealer in Paris. I happened to recognize it, having bought the Jamieson when it was published. It is the second piece which has come my way in nearly a half-century collecting, the other being a smaler later one...

I still wonder how many were awarded. Does anyone have a clue ?

Veteran

Edited October 13, 2013 by Veteran

[Spasm]

Rooting around on t'tinternet:

Thayendanegea or Joseph Brant (March 1743 – 24 November 1807) was a Mohawk military and political leader, based in present-day New York, who was closely associated with Great Britain during and after the American Revolution........He was one of 182 Native American warriors awarded a silver medal from the British for his service.

Could this be one of those?

Edited October 13, 2013 by Spasm

[Stuka f]

Great work!

|<

[Mervyn Mitton]

Native Chief's Medals have been awarded within the British Empire for many years. It was cheaper then giving gifts..........

Most of our Territories in Africa used them, in India, America. In the old Rhodesia they had a lovely silver style, and I

think the Zimbabwe Govt. still gives them. Natal last issued them in 1902 for the Coronation of Edward 7th.

For Nigeria we had the cheek to issue them in three grades. For lesser chiefs there was a staff with a brass head - this

was engraved 3rd. Class Chief. I think only the British of those days would give an award named as a 3rd Class ! The 2nd

class was silver - and 1st class - for Paramount Chiefs was a beautiful solid silver Hippo on top of an elaborate staff.

[Veteran]

Thank you, Spasm, you certainly have a lead there. 182 medals is a very credible number, depending of course on the known numbers of Indian warriors who joined in with the British to check the American attack. Do we have much information about that ?.

It is known that the 1814 medal was awarded in three sizes, one would think the larger ones would have been one third of the lot at the most. Which would mean about 60 awards or less. A very interesting first approach.

I am very grateful. Further information will hopefully come up. It will be just as gratefully received.

Veteran

[Laurence Strong]

http://www.emedals.com/collectors-gallery/canada/campaign-medals-pairs-groups/other/north-american-indian-chief-s-medal-1814?vmcchk=1

Larry

[Stuka f]

Gosh!! Nice catch!

|<ris

[Veteran]

Hi Larry

Thanks for the tip about this perfect piece presently on sale, in the USA.. I had seen it , but I don't really put mine in the same category, even if I rather like the way its wear testifies for its long and probably proud wear by its owner.

Also on Google I found reference of an other well,worn one which sold at auction in July. It went for 7.200 Can.$$$, but I could not find where this happened.

The fun of it all was to find it and pick it up. And now, I am wondering about Indians in Canada two hundred years ago.! Can anyone help me with that;,

I am grateful for the information..

Veteran

[IrishGunner]

I'm just amazed you found it in Paris! That's incredible.

[Veteran]

Moderator

I apologize for posting this item in the "Colonial" group of notices.

Could it please be transfered to : "Commonwealth Realms" just below where it probably belongs?,

Thank you very much

Veteran

[Mervyn Mitton]

With so many posts, probably best to leavi it here. Mervyn

[Veteran]

Hello Mervn

Thank you very much for arrangeing the change.

Now that it is where I should have put it in the first place, I hope this medal will benefit from further information coming from other members of the Club in Canada or eslewhere

IrishGunner remarked that finding it in Paris was unexpected.... I fully agree. Apparently some pieces have a life of their own.

Cordialement

Veteran

Edited October 15, 2013 by Veteran

[Michael Johnson]

Bonjour Veteran,

In 1812 the situation of the Indians/Aboriginals/First Nations/Autochtones in Canada was approximately as follows:

The Six Nations (Iroquois) were in the Brantford Ontario area, with other reserves in eastern Ontario and Quebec.

The Mississaugas were in the areas west and north of Toronto. They are Ojibway by origin

Ojibways (Anishnawbe) were in the Lake Superior area.

There were even some Sioux (Dakota/Lakota)

[Veteran]

Thanks Michael,

It certainly seems that the American Indian people were quite a number in the early XIX's. The list you state is most interesting.

Does any one know how many braves actually joined the British and Canadian regiments in the 1811 War ? All the Indian tribes may not have decided to help.

Best regards

Veteran

[paul wood]

Approximately 100 medals Military General Service Medals were awarded to Indians, mainly warriors but including 10 chiefs, in 1848, this was for services at Fort Detroit Chrystlers Farm and Chateauguay. Given that these had to have survived for 35 years after the event the likelyhood is that there wers several hundred indians serving with the British forces in the 1812 war.

Paul

[Veteran]

Hello Paul

Thank you for this additionnal information. The warriors who were still living when the Military General Service Medal was created must have been only a fraction of the true numbers in 1811-1814, And only a fracton of that would have been able to apply or be put up for the medal.

I wonder if any one has an idea of the number of these larger medals awarded.

Your help is, as usual, highly appreciated.

Personnal regards

Paul

[paul wood]

Paul

Given that that there were 10 chiefs alive in 1848, their survivial rate would have been lower than the warriors because in the main they would be older. My guess is that at least 100 were awarded if not more.

With best regards,

Paul

[peter monahan]

As far as I know there are no rolls for the awards made. In fact, I'm sure that's te case, because I have Mohawk friends who've looked for years because their traditions and some fragmentary records prove that there were warriors at actions not recognized by the 'authorities'. The numbers were in the thousands.

Tecumseth had at least 500 warriors, Shawnee, Pottawatomi, Ottawas and Lakota/Sioux at Detroit and at the Battle of the Thames, were he died and which I re-enacted 2 weeks ago, 600 warriors covered the 'retreat' pf the British forces, who fired 1 or 2 volleys and bolted in the face of Kentucky mounted rifles. Tecumseth died there. Had he lived the map of Nrth America might look vey different, with an Indian homeland in the center - think, Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky.

Native warriors in the old North West - at Fort Michilimackinac on the Michigan Peninsula, now Mackinaw Island Michigan - were a significant factor in restraining US plans to attack Upper Canada. In fact, in the winter of 184-15, a British officer, Lt Andrew Bulger and John Dickson of the British Indian Dept. occupied a captured US fort on the Mississippi River, protecting 'Canada's back door'. This in turn meant that in 1814 Britain was in a far stronger position at the negotiating table than they would otherwise have been. The part played by Natives in the War of 1812 cannot be overestimated!

[Veteran]

Paul, you probably are right about the number or awards you quote, as is clicks with the earlier information reporting 182 Indian chiefs receiving the medal. Thank you again.

Thank you too, Peter, for the additionnal information about the Indian warriors. This part of history is absolutly fascinating ! Looking at the medal on my desk, I can imagine the pride of the man who received it.; and from the looks of it, several generations of his descendants must have worn it with pride.

Finding this medal was fun, finding out about it is even better ....

Best regards

Veteran