EK 1870 Grand cross 1870 Iron Cross

[Alex K]

Hi all, a fairly simple question (I hope).

Grand cross stars, one was produced in 1813, awarded once to Blucher, one produced in 1914, awarded to Hindenburg, one produced but not awarded in 1939, none for 1957 for obvious reasons, but what about 1870? Was one produced or existed from that period and if so was it ever awarded? Information seems scant even though copies or repros seem to exist, are these fantasy pieces?

regards

Alex K

[arb]

...

Edited May 18, 2014 by arb

[dond]

Alex is referring to the breast star, not the GC itself.

[Alex K]

Hi Gentlemen, thanks for the quick responses, yes I was referring to the star rather than the GC. Sorry if I didn't make myself clearer

regards

Alex

[Cartaphilus]

Any Breast Star of the Iron Cross was awarded on 1871, but from my point of view, the one that really deserved it was Moltke.

[Alex K]

Hi Cartaphilus thanks for the reply, no 1870 stars were actually awarded then, but do you know if any were actually produced or existed?

regards

[VtwinVince]

Never heard of a Stern zum EK 1870 being produced, or even considered by the GOC. But I agree that Moltke was a deserving candidate.

[Alex K]

Hi, you seem to confirm my thoughts, The reasons for asking the question is that I understand quality copies of now unobtainable original awards are/were made, but the attached image, seems like a nicely produced piece even though if true, it never existed, so why would someone go to the trouble of producing a non-existent award?

regards

[Cartaphilus]

I have no news about a prototype of time, although we currently have fantasy pieces.

If the idea of the Star of the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross was reward the best general of each war, as Blücher and Hindenburg, I not understand why in 1871 Moltke was not awarded. He had already proved his brilliance also before in 1864 and 1866. It is true that received the Grand Cross of the Order Pour le Merite, but this is a very special award, given only a very short period of time, which was not sustained in subsequent wars, and can not be compared to the glory of receiving Star of the Gran Cross of the Iron Cross.

[VtwinVince]

Agreed. Alex, where did you find that image? It looks fairly convincing.

[Alex K]

I'll have a look in my files, found it, it was being offered by "media.liveauctiongroup.net), description, (Bit confusing)

"ORDER OF THE IRON CROSS-1914-THE HINDENBURG STAR-OUTSTANDING MUSEUM COPY * PAUL VON HINDENBURG WAS THE ONLY RECIPIENT OF THIS AWARD- 3 1/2" IN WIDTH-HAS IRON CROSS CENTER-WITH 1870-"W" AND CROWN- NICELY DETAILED STARBURST-REVERSE PIN SEEMS TO BE MARKED "DESCHLER & SOHN"--GREAT LOOKING MUSEUM DISPLAY COPY"

went unsold, and the pin is stamped Deschler & Sohn but it is double overstamped. In the end I may have partially answered my own question in respect that it is a copy, but a copy of something which appears may not have ever existed!

It would be interesting to find out if Deschler & Sohne,made it, or when they went out of business (if indeed they did), to determine if it's an old or new copy, if old, (and they were prolific during the TR period making medals etc ) why mess around producing a fantasy piece, just a few thoughts

regards

Alex

Just to pick up on Von Moltke yes I agree he most probably deserving of the award, but for some reason, it never happened. as an aside, attached an image from Gottmituns.net website showing a nice image with the grand cross PLM, if you look closely at the top button of his mantle you can make out the reflection of the photographer! Nice shiny buttons in those days

Edited May 20, 2014 by Alex K

[gregM]

The 1870 cross posted by Alex in post #8 is a complete fake.

It is sometimes called the pot hole fake or the Deschler fake

as you can find many many examples of this style all over

ebay with the Deschler mark on it as well as D&S, Muchen 9

and others.

[Alex K]

Hi Greg, thanks for the info, it doesn't surprise me that the piece I posted is a fake. My main question was not so much about the piece shown per se but about the existence or otherwise of a specifically produced 1870 version of a Grand Cross star (in reality so to speak), that's why I qualified my original posting with the question is it a fantasy piece, which it appears to be from available information, someone obviously believes it to be a genuine part of the Iron Cross family, hence known copies up for sale, the difference with the images you posted, these are fakes of actual awards.

regards

Alex