Serbia Unusual Order of the Cross of Takovo

[paja]

It got sold on ebay last month, I've never seen anything like that before. The shape of the star is obviously different but take a look at the badge especially the inscription (КНПЗА И ОТСЧЗСТВО).

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-09817700-1415301757.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-17625400-1415301679.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-71708600-1415301728.jpg

Edited November 6, 2014 by paja

[paja]

I am not sure but the hallmark on the needle seems to be French (boar's head).

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-27793200-1415301844.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-23160300-1415301891.jpg

[paja]

Just for comparison.

[922F]

Looks like someone crudely removed the tips of major star rays....c.f. http://munzeo.com/coin/serbia-order-takovo-grand-cross-20218928 Will check on motto; believe a similar one is illustrated somewhere. Perhaps described as language error by die maker/worker unfamiliar with Serbian text.

[paja]

I agree about the tips, but I've noticed more unusual details. Parts of the star that form "Iron Cross" looking shape are marked on the photo, also those two extra needles which are not something you can see on "regular" Takovo.

Edited November 6, 2014 by paja

[paja]

On the other hand details like that can be seen on some Arthus-Bertrand pieces + remember that boar's head hallmark, so far matches up.

Take for comparison this star of the Order of St. Sava from emedals. Cross shape (notice oval piece in the center, perhaps something like that was originally on Takovo as well) + two extra needles.

[paja]

Language errors are not that rare, like you mentioned most often use of Latin alphabet letters instead of Cyrillic (N instead of Н, Z instead of З, H instead of И, R instead of B) also use of different symbols for the same letter. But I've never seen this type of inscription or inscription with these type of mistakes, I went through my archive and available literature but I wasn't able to find one more example like that.

Apart from the inscription one more unusual detail is the fact that the bow that connects palm branches in enameled! So far I've seen only one Takovo star with bow like that (in a book), all the rest were not enameled. And those palm branches are different from what I'm used to seeing.

All in all very strange looking star. By the way there was one very unusual 4th class on emedals auction not that long ago, and that order also had boar's head hallmark.

[paja]

Found it: http://www.emedals.com/highlighted-offerings/europe/serbia/orders/order-of-takovo/an-unusual-serbian-cross-of-takovo-french-made-eu7057?vmcchk=1

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-54896300-1415317812.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-74513400-1415317821.jpg

[Rogi]

About the only other observation that I can add is that the star itself just doesn't look "crisp" to me, don't know what it is (maybe bad photos?) as well, the Cross looks crooked, plus is it a III or a IV or nothing below the MO Cypher? :D

Edited November 7, 2014 by Rogi

[paul wood]

While I am inclined to smell fake on most occasions I have another thought which has crossed my mind. I suspect these are privately made pieces, one has to remember that the Obrenovich dynasty ceased to exist in 1903 thank to Apis and his friends and along with them the Orders Of Takovo and Milosh Obolich. As may people may be aware the difference in time between receiving notification of the award and receiving insignia can be a very long period some times a couple of years. So someone awarded a Takovo in 1902 or 03 would not have received it due to the defenestration of Belgrade and I cannot imagine the Karageorgovich issuing Obrenovich insignia (as likely as the DDR issuing Nazi insignia). So I suspect that the recipient popped along to their pet jeweller with a picture of the insignia, thus the errors due to non Serb readers. It may be a severely flawed hypothesis but I would be interested in hearing others thoughts.

Paul

[Rogi]

While I am inclined to smell fake on most occasions I have another thought which has crossed my mind. I suspect these are privately made pieces, one has to remember that the Obrenovich dynasty ceased to exist in 1903 thank to Apis and his friends and along with them the Orders Of Takovo and Milosh Obolich. As may people may be aware the difference in time between receiving notification of the award and receiving insignia can be a very long period some times a couple of years. So someone awarded a Takovo in 1902 or 03 would not have received it due to the defenestration of Belgrade and I cannot imagine the Karageorgovich issuing Obrenovich insignia (as likely as the DDR issuing Nazi insignia). So I suspect that the recipient popped along to their pet jeweller with a picture of the insignia, thus the errors due to non Serb readers. It may be a severely flawed hypothesis but I would be interested in hearing others thoughts.

Paul

Paul, I have to agree with you, this is possible, but I think at the moment without more proof, or at least better shots of the piece, it will probably remain in the mysterious section. I think it will be a good mystery to solve, one day should a member on our forum come into possession of such a piece.

[paja]

While I am inclined to smell fake on most occasions I have another thought which has crossed my mind. I suspect these are privately made pieces, one has to remember that the Obrenovich dynasty ceased to exist in 1903 thank to Apis and his friends and along with them the Orders Of Takovo and Milosh Obolich. As may people may be aware the difference in time between receiving notification of the award and receiving insignia can be a very long period some times a couple of years. So someone awarded a Takovo in 1902 or 03 would not have received it due to the defenestration of Belgrade and I cannot imagine the Karageorgovich issuing Obrenovich insignia (as likely as the DDR issuing Nazi insignia). So I suspect that the recipient popped along to their pet jeweller with a picture of the insignia, thus the errors due to non Serb readers. It may be a severely flawed hypothesis but I would be interested in hearing others thoughts.

Paul

Your theory made me think of something else. Perhaps we are dealing with a replacement order, I can easily imagine foreign recipient avoiding official channels and ordering new piece from one of the workshops, if nothing that must have been much simpler.

PS just one small correction, order that went to history together with Obrenovićs was Order of Miloš (Obrenović) the Great. Miloš Obilić was bravery medal introduced by the rival dynasty.

[paja]

Now something really unusual.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-86566400-1415398557.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-04176500-1415398575.jpg

[paja]

One more "unknown producer", couple of similar orders can be seen in Car/Muhić book but none of them are looking exactly like this.

Elements of 4th and 5th class orders combined together. Crown is strange, my first thought when I saw it was that someone replaced it, but now I think there's bigger probability that it's original. Pieces of white enamel are still there together with something that looks like traces of red enamel in the upper part of the crown.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-96223000-1415400031.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-63393800-1415400128.jpg

Edited November 7, 2014 by paja

[serbman]

look at this

[serbman]

other interesting pieces

[paja]

Thanks for sharing those, most unusual.

The last one looks like miniature.

[Rogi]

Just one last comment, there seems to be glue marks in the bottom of the Cross and in one of the corners. They can be seen better in other shots of this order, so I'll ask Paja to post them later

Could be that it was repaired in its lifetime. Those missing corners don't do this piece justice, if it could only tell stories I wonder what it would say.

Excellent examples Serbman, very interesting pieces :)

Edited November 10, 2014 by Rogi

[paul wood]

Radmilo,

Sorry for mixing up my Milosh's, been off the alcohol a few weeks thus my brain is addled. I like your replacement theory, it has to be something like this given the numbers, there are too many for them to be copies. Are there similar oddities of Sava's and White Eagles?

Paul

[Rogi]

Radmilo,

Sorry for mixing up my Milosh's, been off the alcohol a few weeks thus my brain is addled. I like your replacement theory, it has to be something like this given the numbers, there are too many for them to be copies. Are there similar oddities of Sava's and White Eagles?

Paul

I'll take this question, if you don't mind Radmilo and Paul

There are definatley different variations and unknown producers of St. Savas and White Eagles and Takovos, for example, the Golden St. Sava,

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/64057-golden-st-sava/

and from this group:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/64083-group-gouverneur-general-hubert-auguste-garbit/

A lot of French Dignitaries were awarded with orders and a lot of these pieces were designed as custom pieces or after market purchases. I believe that the

recipients received the docs and sometimes the medal did not reach them in time or was not issued, so recipients themselves could purchase another variant from

private Jewellers.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Rogi

[paja]

Just one last comment, there seems to be glue marks in the bottom of the Cross and in one of the corners. They can be seen better in other shots of this order, so I'll ask Paja to post them later

Could be that it was repaired in its lifetime. Those missing corners don't do this piece justice, if it could only tell stories I wonder what it would say.

Excellent examples Serbman, very interesting pieces

I should have posted link to auction in the first place, anyway here it is: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SERBIA-ORDER-OF-THE-CROSS-OF-TAKOVO-1882-1903-SILVER-amp-ENAMEL-BREAST-STAR-MEDAL-/381016927760?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58b660ee10&nma=true&si=Th9xgFeaM3oWcgcpiueM%252BDVU7QU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Price was rather high if you ask me...

[paja]

Radmilo,

Sorry for mixing up my Milosh's, been off the alcohol a few weeks thus my brain is addled. I like your replacement theory, it has to be something like this given the numbers, there are too many for them to be copies. Are there similar oddities of Sava's and White Eagles?

Paul

I'll take this question, if you don't mind Radmilo and Paul

There are definatley different variations and unknown producers of St. Savas and White Eagles and Takovos, for example, the Golden St. Sava,

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/64057-golden-st-sava/

and from this group:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/64083-group-gouverneur-general-hubert-auguste-garbit/

A lot of French Dignitaries were awarded with orders and a lot of these pieces were designed as custom pieces or after market purchases. I believe that the

recipients received the docs and sometimes the medal did not reach them in time or was not issued, so recipients themselves could purchase another variant from

private Jewellers.

I don't mind at all.

There are some unusual variations of both St. Sava and White Eagle orders (and of other orders as well), but in my opinion their number is much smaller compared to Takovo. Photos of some unusual White Eagles can be found in the following topics:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/58590-kingdom-of-serbia-order-of-the-white-eagle-unknown-producer/

First one is I believe early Bertrand but the second one is a bit suspicious.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/58460-serbia-order-of-st-sava-commander-1st-type-m/

Two unusual White Eagles with swords.

Edited November 10, 2014 by paja

[utopis]

Price was rather high if you ask me...

Considering the condition it was definitely overpriced. I'm surprised no one picked up on the three large holes. I would think that these were once rivets but 3 is quite the unusual number for rivets (usually 4 or 2) and the holes are relatively asymmetrical.

[paja]

Considering the condition it was definitely overpriced. I'm surprised no one picked up on the three large holes. I would think that these were once rivets but 3 is quite the unusual number for rivets (usually 4 or 2) and the holes are relatively asymmetrical.

I really didn't pay much attention to that detail but now that you have mentioned it, it really is unusual to see three holes.

Bertrand's stars like the one showed in post #6 had two holes for rivets in upper and lower part.

Edited November 10, 2014 by paja

[paja]

Here it is again: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SERBIA-ORDER-OF-THE-CROSS-OF-TAKOVO-1882-1903-SILVER-ENAMEL-BREAST-STAR-MEDAL-/381066115072?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58b94f7800