order_of_victory Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 Wow, what happened to those medals, he must of used some pretty strong cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 I find the set fascinating and makes me ask a great number of questions. Foremost, what the heck did he polish those with? Secondly, when was the orders booklet issued that it already had a photo of these 3 medals buffed out like this!? I think David, for a set in this condition, atrributable or not, you'll be hard pressed to get the value you're seeking. At the point where you're 40% in, to me anyway, you're better off saving that extra amount for one in vastly better condition.Yes, they still have value, but the historical significance/value has superceded the value of the medals themselves. In the absence of the provenance, I don't think you'd be able to get anything for them. My best inexperienced guess hear is that if you can find someone willing to pay $1500 in that condition I'd take the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyFCO Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 I find the set fascinating and makes me ask a great number of questions. Foremost, what the heck did he polish those with? Secondly, when was the orders booklet issued that it already had a photo of these 3 medals buffed out like this!? I think David, for a set in this condition, atrributable or not, you'll be hard pressed to get the value you're seeking. At the point where you're 40% in, to me anyway, you're better off saving that extra amount for one in vastly better condition.Yes, they still have value, but the historical significance/value has superceded the value of the medals themselves. In the absence of the provenance, I don't think you'd be able to get anything for them. My best inexperienced guess hear is that if you can find someone willing to pay $1500 in that condition I'd take the money.Rick:I appreciate your opinion. However, your inexperience is shown by your statement that you don't even know where the photo came from. The cavaliers were issued special "cavalier" order books, and this is where the photo came from, and is completely correct for the order book. I'm not sure what you consider an "absence of provenance"... These have PMD certificates, they have the original cavalier book, and they are completely readable on the reverse of the awards. Tell me this - what's more valuable? An attributed medal that has been worn on the front, or a medal that has had the serial number erased on the reverse? If it's the latter, it's simply a piece of metal and somewhat valuable numismatically, but of no historical value. At least these have historical value... but explain to me why I've seen Suvorov 3rds with numbers erased sell for over $3K? I appreciate your opinion, but I think your a bit off in your valuation for what's here.Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 Hi David, never made any pretense of experience where Soviet is considered.... but I have bought and sold many countries militaria for many years.Excuse my mistake in calling his "Cavalier's Book" his "Orders book". I'd still like to know when the book was actually issued as that would interesting to know that at (whatever time that was) his medals had already been polished into oblivion.I hope for the sake of your consignor you can get $2500-$3000. But as a long term-buyer of militaria, PMD approved or not, that's a lot of money for a really rough set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyFCO Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 I hope for the sake of your consignor you can get $2500-$3000. But as a long term-buyer of militaria, PMD approved or not, that's a lot of money for a really rough set.I'll admit that it's a really rough set, though I think of it more as "well loved"... he polished the group every day until he died. I guess I could dig up his grave and slap his wrist for taking away the numismatic properties of the awards, but I think it's a moot point... they are what they are. All that I'm saying is that I think you're inexperience is making a very unrealistic appraisal, based on seeing what, one real group offered for sale? Were I to see this group offered for sale at $1500, I would jump on it in a heartbeat, and I don't even collect these! When I bought this group from PMD originally in 2000, I was actually in competition with three other collectors for them at just under $3K... but I got them because I had bought the consecutively serial numbered group from him not a few weeks before that. And I later sold the two groups for what I had into them to another collector. I think it's only reasonable that, given the same condition they should go for about the same price that they sold for six years ago, even though for every other Soviet award, to make that statement would be absolute and pure insanity. YOU might not think they're worth that, but you're entitled to your own opinion. I personally think of the pair of these groups that the group with the "8 out of 10" graded Glory 1st is worth the majority of the money, with this set being neat to have with it as a consecutively numbered group to a famous Cavalier... not because of the numismatic value of the front of the medals. This is the last time I'll post up anything like this. I do apologize to all for how this thread has turned out. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 This is my first viewing, since generally I find Glories-- as OBJECTS-- . Obviously I am a citation freak, so that is not a slur on the deeds for which they were awarded, just aesthetics.I am also a provenance freak. I have exactly TWO ribbon bars that I have photographs of THOSE ribbon bars (not just the same combination, but the uniquely identifiable ribbon bars themselves) being worn by the German Generals.To me, an admitted Glory non-fan, the fact that the original wearer is DOCUMENTED photographically wearing these poor scrubbed soap stars is ALL that matters. THAT is the very best attribution there is. HE did that, not some moron collector. "As worn by" is as good as it gets, for me, with my sentimental proclivities.Some never worn, boxed, unissued.... who CARES about that?I'd cherish a "poor bedraggled" group like this FOREVER if it was in my price range. Collectors are weird about "priorities." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darrell Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 (edited) The picture says it all. Provenance I guess that's what makes it worth more than just the old tired medals themselves. Obviously he knew what order to where these ,,, but other than the serial numbers on the back, how would you know the 2nd Class from the 3rd in this state?P.S. Are the serial numbers legible? You would think they would be faint if the front has been worn off this badly Edited March 30, 2006 by Darrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Dave, I would sincerely hope that a simple disagreement over perceived value would not prevent you from posting anything. As I originally stated, damage per-se doesn't bother me in a documented/attributed group. My opinions for value are just that, my opinions. I own two double glory groups, not a full cavalier. One of which ended up being wrong to boot and it was actually Rick R that caught that. Not the seller, not me and none of the OMSA guys that fondled it over the years. I'd love a full cavalier group, but realisticly the (so far) shown price tag is prohibitive to me. Your set is phenominal for exactly all the reasons we've all stated and then nicely summed up by my "Evil Twin"?..... Then it becomes a question of what it's worth and that will always be a very subjective thing to me and probably to most people.Yes, I would agree "well-loved" to be a much better representation than "rough". My intent was not to denigrate the set in and of itself in any way. Frankly I am still fascinated and would still like to know when the Cavalier Book was issued...... the fact that he had polished them into oblivion by that time quite obviously meant nothing to him, he continued to proudly wear what he earned. I don't think there's any "wrist slapping" deserved by him or any other recipient that wore, polished and occasionally dropped and broke his awards. I'm sure if he had wanted to, he could have presented them and had replacements issued, but he kept these...... good enough for me.Again, I would sincerely hope that a difference in opinion of monetary value would not keep you from posting anything for discussion and/or enjoyment of us all.And, I am sincerely sorry if my inexperience and lack of appreciation of the value of this very wonderful set has offended you in any way, shape, manner or form. Truly. Mea Culpa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rboomsma Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Since a good number of the people on this thread probably don't know what we're talking about, here's photos of the group in question. First, a photo of the front of the three Glories...Can I see a photo of the backs, what are the serial numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyFCO Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Can I see a photo of the backs, what are the serial numbers?Okay, by request........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyFCO Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Here's also the inside of the book... Rick, it's a 1976 date, so the Glories were worn down by then (given that the photo was taken at the same time the book was issued...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyFCO Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 The next page of the award book with the serial numbers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyFCO Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 I found some nice shots of the other Glory 1st as well in my files. Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyFCO Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 And the reverse.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyFCO Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Here's the Third Class with the group... Too bad that some folks think that this would be detrimental to the value of the group... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyFCO Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 The inside of his order book. I wonder what the purists would say about the mis-stamp in the book? "Throw it out, the group is GARBAGE! It's not worth anything because SOMEONE messed it up!" Noooooo!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 I really like that "polished" Cavalier group! For me that is history at its best! I like them worn or with nice patina. A minty order is for me an order without history.By the way, this is just my opinion. Each one has there way to collect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerd Becker Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Here's the Third Class with the group... Too bad that some folks think that this would be detrimental to the value of the group...What? The value of the glory 3rd just makes a few percent of the value of the whole group. I agree completely with Soviet, thats a lovely set and i would be proud to own it, no doubt. Gerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 I would be proud to own either set, irrespective of the price/condition. Both are wonderful and I cannot imagine breaking up the second group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 (edited) While the word "value" seems to matter a great deal to some, why does this so often become "market (cash) value" to the total exclusion of "historical (research) value". I know we have beaten this deceased horse into a pulp before, but is it not possible to collect, to study, without always thinking of the quick resale and flogging a quick buck (or euro or pound or whatever) off the thing. As others have echoed, I, for one, have no interest in transfering custody of the medals that now have come to live with me until I am pushing up the metaphorical posies. Once again, I feel like I am in the romantic minority.These are lovely groups, and if the market-fixated commercial medal collectors didsdain them, then that is fine and dandy. It makes it all the easier for the historically aware phalerist to give then a good and loving home. For those who want the numismatically virginal medal, there'll always be unissued specimens, never out of the box. Leave the history to the rest of us.Personally I consider breaking up any group to be a capital offense, though as we proceed beyond the phaleristic core of medals and paperwork, the issue become increasingly unclear (at least to me): ribbon bars, uniform tunic, shoes, underwear, his daughter's underwear?? Edited March 30, 2006 by Ed_Haynes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 I shall refrain from commenting on the purchase of the "underwear"...... this brings to mind the mythical trunk of General Bader.... Please PM me before even considering breaking that second set... I could always offer indentured servitude to keep it intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyFCO Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Personally I consider breaking up any group to be a capital offense, though as we proceed beyond the phaleristic core of medals and paperwork, the issue become increasingly unclear (at least to me): ribbon bars, uniform tunic, shoes, underwear, his daughter's underwear??I have a group like that... I ended up getting everything from the guys medals to his papers to his shaving kit and wristwatch... you name it, basically anything that the family could find of his that wasn't thrown out immediately after he died. It's a neat group, but huge. My contact that was brining this stuff out thought I was crazy for wanting all this stuff! But here's my thought though, which is basically another question... If I sell the group without the guy's shaving kit and watch, have I split the group up? I don't plan on doing that, but at what point is the group considered "split"? I don't think there's a really good answer and it's one of those "what's the meaning of life?" debates that could have smart people discussing it forever and never reach a good answer...Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 I know the group you are talking about, Dave. On one level, "such problems we should all have". And, honestly, I don't know the answer either, I don't even know if there is a "right answer"; I guess that is what makes this an interesting and important question? I have passed on groups that were "too complete" for my interests, storage space, and budget (I have, for example, routinely passed on any group that included uniforms); even though the sellers were willing to sever the medals from the haberdashery, I allowed the group to go on to another good and loving home intact -- or at least I must hope it did.This may be getting us but I think it is an important facet of issues that have come up here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Ah, the meaning of life!Now THAT I know the answer to! Back in a bit with the copy and paste! I keep coming back to the obsessively polished Trio--clearly an overt physical manifestation of severe and literal (I am NOT being funny, now) "inner demons," the sort of compulsive behaviour associated with excessive washing and so on... clinical, literal, psychiatric "issues." Survivor's guilt? Cannot diagnose THAT from this group. But all the MORE interesting and not LESS:how often do any of us obtain something that is the direct physical evidence of ahuman soul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley1965 Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 That set has GREAT character!!! To break it up is a "crime"!!! I would proudly display the group and documents. The worn 3rd class does not concern me. I like it worn. The documentation of this group and the gentleman who was awarded them was highly decorated.Just look at his picture.WOW!!! A lot of history there. That's the good stuff. Just my opinion, but I Love it!!!Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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