Godet medal bar with Jerusalem Cross 1898

[kasle]

Before making quite big purchase, I would like you to check this medal bar. It´s quite unusual combination of awards, so I believe the wearer can be traced. Of course, if the bar original. I am mostly interested in originality of Jerusalem cross as the most valuable award. Thank you very much in advance.

 

[kasle]

Some details of Jerusalem cross.

[kasle]

Lippe Kriegs-Ehrenzeichen on ribbon for merit at enemy territory (459 awarded) with Lippe award for Arts and Science, 3rd class (143 awarded).

Edited June 18, 2015 by kasle

[kasle]

Anhalt Merit award for Arts and Science and Sachsen Weimar Silver Merit cross.

[Claudius]

 

wow, what a bar if it is legit and especially if it can be traced.

I know a Godet bar aficionado on this forum.  I hope he sees this thread and comments.

 

Good luck! 

[Claudio]

Well... What to say; it doesn't really struck me like a typical Godet bar, how the bar is constructed, the ribbons folded... The ribbons look like brand new, but the back or some threads in worse conditions... I don't know but I would definitely check the ribbons with UV light test, to see if there are old originals. There are Jerusalem crosses fakes around, but I couldn't comment on that.

C

[Claudio]

Moreover the Godet's label on the back is older than the type of the grey backing usually used in the late 20ies or 30ies by Godet.

[kasle]

Very interesting thoughts, thank you very much, Claudio. Although I am more miniature oriented when it comes to Godet, I agree with the fact, that this is not typical Godet mount.
I would just like to add, that these photos were brightened by me, because medals were too dark on original seller´s photos. That´s the reason why ribbons look too new. But if you check the detail, nearly all of them have worn spot precisely on the place where is a hook underneath.

Another interesting feature which I noticed only when you pointed on the ribbons is that Lippische Rose for Arts and Science is not in fact 3rd class, but 2nd class with suspended oakleaves - which is quite exciting, because 2nd class was awarded only 43 times.. It is just small difference, but second class has inline loop (as this one), while third class has loop in 90° degree to the medal (as seen on reference medal bar below). As you can check, all medals are sewn with yellow (orange) thread, while Lippische rose is attached with grey thread, that is quite loose. So, at the end, this bar was surely messed up with.

[kasle]

Small correction - there is one more medal sewn with grey thread and it´s Sachse Weimar Silbernes Verdienstkreuz. Is it possible that originally there was another medal on same ribbon, that was replaced? I think there is a visibly bigger gap on both sides of this award than between any others.

[Beau Newman]

I haven't seen enough Jerusalem crosses to have an opinion on that but, the Anhalt piece appears to be silver-gilt, which is a bit of a red flag for me.  These are generally bronze-gilt like the Albert the Bear awards.

[CRBeery]

I watched this bar and considered bidding but stopped for two reasons. First, as Cladio mentioned, the front does not look like a Godet bar. It struck me as odd. From the few photos I could find the Jerusalem cross is either good or a great copy. Too few of these around for me to be sure. The second thing that stopped me was that as I have watched this collection get sold off there were a number of reproduction medals. It may be that there just were not many references available when this collection  was built up. I know there were bad pieces in there, as I am sure there are probably in mine, and that gives me extra pause in bidding on pieces from that collection.

I did notice the coloring of the Anhalt medal but to my eyes it looks like old metal polish that was left on the medal. There is some on the back of the Saxon piece also.

Overall, I am not sure about bar so I stayed out of the bidding. If good it is an outstanding gem for someone's collection.

[kasle]

I am personally convinced that Anhalt is gilded bronze with old polish (or something) left on it. At the detail of reverse (which I didn´t post before) it is quite clearly seen.

I think there is an agreement in this moment, that this medal bar is not absolutely untouched "Prunkstück". The question is - is this an original medal bar that was depleted by suspending the oakleaves from 2nd class Lippische Rose (and maybe by exchanging some more valuable award for Silbernes Verdienstkreuz) and then "upgraded" with old Godet label that doesn´t fit to medal bar from 1920s?
Or is this an fantasy medal bar, either made from original pieces, or from copies? I think that there weren´t many personalities with quite rare awards for Arts and Science of two small German states being awarded with Jerusalem Cross. So the identification attempt of this bar would be very helpful in confirming its authenticity..

Edited June 19, 2015 by kasle

[dedehansen]

 

So much polish on the medals and all ribbons in mint conditions ? 

I have my doubts. 

Regards

Andreas

[kasle]

Thank you for your opinion, Andreas. I think I already explained why ribbons look mint. Plus, it´s quite common to see correctly stored medal bars where ribbons stayed quite mint, while metal parts kept developing heavy patina (as seen on photo below). Even silver frame on EK2 stored in blue packet will patinate, while ribbon stays mint like made yesterday (second photo).
If somebody thought (incorrectly) it would be better to polish medals on this bar before sale, then that is what we see. Maybe he even put the whole bar to washing machine first, because the red dye from stripes on Lippische Rose ribbon can be seen slightly dissolved to white parts. Precisely as when you throw red socks to the washing machine full of white T shirts.

If you don´t mind, in this moment I would really appreciate to move from ribbons and threads to awards, if it is possible. I think this piece still doesn´t deserve to be publicly burnt, only because  awards on it are so rare, that most of us can discuss just pieces of fabric hanging on it.

Thank you very much in advance.
Miro

 

Edited June 19, 2015 by kasle