Wurttemberg Medal Bar, Ribbon Bar & Mini's

[Mark M]

I stumbled upon this lot for sale today and thought I would post it to the forum for comments. The lot includes everything pictured. The reverse of the The reverse of the miniature medal bar is marked "Lehmann & Wundenberg, Hannover". And, before anyone asks, I do not have pitures of the reverse. I am working on getting them and will post them if I receive them.

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[Mark M]

Attached is the reverse of the grouping.

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[Guest Rick Research]

That's a group in the immaculate condition always to be hoped for.

Probably a pre-war (but left before the war for other assignments) officer of Inf Regt 121. Untraceable without published W?rttemberg rolls, though if the original owber's name was known, it would be verifiable and details aplenty on all EXCEPT his wartime decorations.

[Dave Danner]

Assuming you have resources to eliminate others because of known wartime awards, there are about a half-dozen possibilities, most in IR121 as Rick notes. You also have Maj. Simon of IR120 and Maj. Bader of IR 124 - both with prewar WF3a and SA3a and no other decorations except the long service.

[Stogieman]

Nice to see a matched set! Buy it Mark!

[Mark M]

Thanks everyone.

Lets assume for arguments sake that I am on the bottom of the learning curve in medal bars, which in truth I actually am.

Rick - you speculate that this is probably an pre-war officer from IR121. I am curious as to how you came to the conclusion? You also mention that with a name you could trace his pre-war decorations but not his wartime decorations. Since this medal bar has a Kyfhauserbund medal on the end, not to mention an 1914 EK2 and Friedrich Order with swords, shouldn't this indicate a post war assembly and include all of his awards with the exception of pin backs decorations?

Thanks in advance,

Mark

[Dave Danner]

Thanks everyone.

Lets assume for arguments sake that I am on the bottom of the learning curve in medal bars, which in truth I actually am.

Rick - you speculate that this is probably an pre-war officer from IR121. I am curious as to how you came to the conclusion? You also mention that with a name you could trace his pre-war decorations but not his wartime decorations. Since this medal bar has a Kyfhauserbund medal on the end, not to mention an 1914 EK2 and Friedrich Order with swords, shouldn't this indicate a post war assembly and include all of his awards with the exception of pin backs decorations?

Thanks in advance,

Mark

Not to step on Rick's toes too much, and he can certainly fill in what I miss:

1. The King of Saxony was the honorary colonel of IR 121, so most W?rttembergers with Saxon decorations, and only Saxon ones, likely passed through that regiment.

2. A lack of W?rttemberg award rolls means you can't trace the one WW1 award other than the EK - the WF3aX.

3. The two most likely candidates still serving in IR121 at the beginning of the war were Maj. Menzel and Hptm. Brummer. Perhaps Rick has some knowledge in his library to rule them out.

Part of the problem, I suppose, is the lack of any other WW1 decorations. A serving officer of IR121 in 1914 might have quickly earned an upgrade to swords for his Albert, and many other majors or senior captains with the prewar Albert might have earned more than "just" an EK and a Friedrichs-Orden (which for a W?rttemberg officer would be the equivalent of an EK). But a retired officer brought back into service sometime during the war might not have had the time or the high-profile duty station to earn other wartime awards.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Dave Danner

[Mark M]

Dave

Thank you for your insight. One of the things that puzzled me when I saw this grouping was the lack of any minor war time decorations. Originally I thought that perhaps this was an officer who was disabled early in the war and mustered out, but your thoughts on the retired officer recalled to duty makes sense too. I checked the 1914 Honor Listings and both the officers you mentioned survived the war, Major Menzel retired as a Major and Hauptmann Brummer retired as an Oberstlt.

Mark

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes, I think whoever this was had LEFT IR 121 before the war and hence without any affiliation with the regiment, no wartime award from Saxony as those who remained with the regiment almost invariably got the Albert relevant to their grade. Given the normal "up to Captain" within regimental promotions, I suspect this guy had made major just before the war started and gone to another unit in the genreal list promotion pool for "space available" advancement from Major up. (And chances are he did NOT go to any of the OTHER regiments with a Royal honorary colonel, since no other WW1 German awards from them.)

The Rank Lists showing awards ceased in 1914 and resumed in 1924, but anyone who did NOT continue on in the Reichswehr simply "disappears."

Absence of published W?rttemberg WW1 award rolls means I have NO way to determine from my own library who

with pre-1897 seniority,

a peacetime SA3a

and survived the war

might NOT have gotten BOTH this WF3aX and the WMVO3.

This is not a particularly lowly or under-decorated officer-- plenty of Bavarian wartime Majors ended the war without ever getting more than both EKs and ONE of their own native Orders, like here.

That being the OTHER wrinkle in W?rttemberg Award Hell-- since the parsimonious freaks were so stingy with decoration that this officer MIGHT have had a peacetime Friedrich and had to give it up for the same class with swords-- and that would throw off an identification as well.

IF only the wartime W?rttemberg Order rolls were published....

[Mark M]

Rick

OK, I'll ask. Why haven't the Wurttemberg Orders roles ever been published?

[Guest Rick Research]

Erhard Roth, who did so many of the terrific 1990s rolls which Michael Autengruber was regularly publishing, is dead.

Autengruber is no longer publishing.

Nobody in Germany is DOING any work to publish the unpublished rolls... that I am aware of.

The market is certainly here. The demand is certainly here. The ability of non-locals to DO "on site" work is... nil.

Hello, Germany!!!!!!

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Guys,

just to clear out some things:

Autengruber IS publishing, but if nobody gives him anything to publish he can hardly do.

I can offer to do a W?rttemberg Military Merit Order roll. BUT before I start I need some guys who might want one!

Best regards

Daniel

[Guest Rick Research]

Me!!!

[Stogieman]

And I would take one too!

[Mark M]

Gentlemen

For the hard work you have done the members should all chip in and buy one for you each. It is the least we could do.

Rick - I took your advice and the bit the bullet. I should have this set in hand Friday. Want some close ups?

Daniel - I would be interested in one too.

Mark

[Guest Rick Research]

Of the six "easy" suspects (serving in the W?rttemberg XIII. Armeekorps in 1914), FIVE can be excluded =

IR 121's Menzel (Saxon award during the war as expected in this regiment) and Brummer (a native Badener and decorated by them during the war), Freiherr von Hermann of IR 122 was decorated by Bavaria during the war and would presumably have gotten a courtesy Austro-Hungarian gong from HIS "Honorary Chief," Bader of IR 124 received a Prussian HHOX, and Sprandl of Landwehrbezirk Ravensburg was killed in 1915.

That leaves

Georg SIMON, born 15 November 1864 in Aachen

Kadett on entry in W?rttemberg amy 14.4.83

Sekondelieutenant 13.11.83

Premierleutnant 1.8.92

Hauptmann 27.1.98

Major 17.9.09 T (commander of IInd Battalion, Inf Rgt 120 in 1914, WF3a, W XXV, SA3a)

Oberstleutnant 24.12.14 K

Oberst 18.10.17 H

and resigned early in that rank as Oberst aD as never brevetted as his seniority allowed.

According to the Honor Rank List he never commanded a regiment.

Per my Secret April 1917 Position List of the W?rttemberg Home Establishment, he was then on the staff of the Home Establishment 52nd Infantry Brigade in Ludwigsburg, and was also "Leiter d. Ausbildungs Kurse M?nsingen." My edition of von Moser has NO index but I don't find him scanning the lists of "weird unit commanders."

This is NOT to say that Simon is the ONLY possible candidate for this group's original wearer. I haven't sought out strays among the Prussian ranks, "promoted out" of W?rttemberg before the war started but still carried in Prussian units as W?rttemberg officers.

Oberst aD Simon was alive in 1926.

[Stogieman]

Kind of scary when he does that........ isn't it!?!?!

[Mark M]

No. What is scary is that he is still not finished with this!

[Mark M]

Rick R.

These questions are directed to you from your twin. The set arrived in todays mail. It is a very beautiful set. The first observation is that the SAO is marked S and is a silver/gilt example. The WFO appears to be a gold version. The loops securing the lower cross were loose and the award easily slipped out ot them. The reverse medallion was also loose and almost fell from the award. The entire award is hollow - arms, starburst, etc. While the SAO has tarnished the WFO has a very 18K luster to it. I was told that the way to tell for sure if it is gold or not is to lick it. I was also told that you explain why that is the only way to tell.

As to the ID, when did the SAO's start producing the silver/gilt examples? When did they stop producing gold examples of the WFO? How does this effect your theory as to the ID of the officer?

Thanks,

Mark

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[Mark M]

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[Mark M]

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[medalnet]

Saxony Kingdom switsched 1902/03 from Gold to Silver gilt.

[Guest Rick Research]

THAT'S how you can tell that HE is the Evil Twin. Lies, calumnies, falsehoods... there is no "lick test" for gold.

I wouldn't rush anything without thinking this over very well, but perhaps a literal DROP of Elmer's Glue, being water based and soluble, might be enough to hold in the fossilized snot that was the original packing on these to keep the back disk from literally falling off if it is that loose. It was, of course, originally sewn down snug to the ribbon as the threads still show, to prevent clanking and chipping.

I've been through the 1914 (being the GOOD Twin) and find no other candidate then except Simon. There is always the chance that it might indeed have been somebody who retired before the war and was recalled, so will continue looking, but am now 9 out of 10 sure it was Simon's group.

Even without licking it.

[Mark M]

Rick

That's a relief! I thought for a moment he meant that I somehow had to get it to you and that YOU had to lick it!

Thanks,

Mark

[ErikMuller]

I can offer to do a W?rttemberg Military Merit Order roll. BUT before I start I need some guys who might want one!

A bit late for a reaction: but I would definitely want one!