Non com medal bar

[Richarddwh]

I've posted this before on another forum, but have since got a better camera. I am still unsure about this bar whether its a put together job or a genuine mounting or how probable the combination is. The medals however appear the real deal and the price was very reasonable so I took the risk. I would appreciate any opinions, I will try to post a photo of the reverse later.

[Richarddwh]

Close up of the NSDAP medal

[Paul R]

Interesting combination. All things aside, the major thing that I do not like about it is the absence of the Hindenburg Cross. Can we please see a shot of the reverse?

Thanks!

Paul

[Stogieman]

Not a possible combination for the reason stated by Paul.

Combattant 1914 EK2 but no Hindenburg? No, no, no!

[notned]

Hmmm, Interesting indeed!

A non com EK with a Combattants KVKII from WWII????

and as above...no Hindenberg cross.....very suspicious!

So how could it be possible for a Soldier to NOT be a combattant in the Great War...then be a combattant in the 2nd war??

the mind boggles....

[Richarddwh]

Thanks for your comments, very good poitnts. Is it possible, that this combo could have arisen from the recipient working on the Reichsbahn during WW2. I admit I might be trying to flog a dead horse here! Does the NSDAP medal look original?

[Paul R]

I am afraid that the only version I have is the later version. I cannot make an educated comment on this one. From what I know, it looks OK.

Regards

Paul

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hmmm, Interesting indeed!

A non com EK with a Combattants KVKII from WWII????

and as above...no Hindenberg cross.....very suspicious!

So how could it be possible for a Soldier to NOT be a combattant in the Great War...then be a combattant in the 2nd war??

the mind boggles....

He did not need to be a combattant in WW2. It would have been enough to have done something brave in an Airraid to get a KVK2 with swords.

No Hindenburg cross is however a bit funny..

best

Chris

[dond]

Maybe he never applied for the HC. It wasn't that important of an award and he might have been trying to just forget about the war.

[Stogieman]

Sorry, thought you had a combattant EK2 from WW1 there.

If it is indeed a Non-Combattant EK2, the combination is entirely possibly, even with the absence of the Honor Cross (Hindenburg Cross). In fact, in combination with the party LS Cross it becomes a bit more convincing.... Again we have a bar that in the absence of documents, all we will have is pure speculation.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Sorry, thought you had a combattant EK2 from WW1 there.

If it is indeed a Non-Combattant EK2, the combination is entirely possibly, even with the absence of the Honor Cross (Hindenburg Cross). In fact, in combination with the party LS Cross it becomes a bit more convincing.... Again we have a bar that in the absence of documents, all we will have is pure speculation.

I had a doc group to a NSDAP Blockleiter.

KVK2 W/penknives for bravery in an airraid.

KVK2 WO/penknives for service as a blockleiter in the war

KVM for his work as a locksmith in a factory.

It was really a unique low level group.

[Ulsterman]

You outbid me on that bar. Well done.

The noncom EK2s are all over the map, but I remember seeing somewhere that 10,000 of the 13,000 were awarded post 1918 and that the vast majority went to civillian types. Commonly seen references in ranklists are to medical officers, but I have seen docs of them awarded to all sorts-notibly engineers& bureaucrats (FEMALE NURSES, naval architects, airship chemists, Reichsbahn Inspector, Silesian Reichspost director, tax collector, Vice Consuls at some God forsaken place in Anatolia I can't even find on a map etc.).

The medal bars' story then is plausable-civillian in WW1 in a technical capacity, then joins NSDAP in 1930 as an "officer", in uniform or "combat zone" in WW2 for the KVKx and helps build the Westwall. Makes me think NSKK type.

[Guest Rick Research]

I would like to see the BACK of the medal bar, please.

"White-black" EKs could indeed as has been said have gone to categories of civilians who were not eligible for a Hindenburg Cross, as well as to "war participant" military noncombatants.

I have a group to a military recipient of a "white-black" (so in his case he got the noncombatant Hindenburg) EK2 as a clerk in Hamburg-- never having heard a shot fired in the First War... but a KVK2 WITH SWORDS as a civilian Reichsbank employee in the Second because of air raid heroism = "no action soldier/combat civilian."

This IS a peculiar combination. Not impossible, but very peculiar. If the award documents had been preserved with this, all would have been clear and "obvious." The wearer would NOT have been any form of civil servant because there is no "Treudienst" cross. He was some sort of uniformed Party functionary. The Westwall Medal and KVK2X suggest to me some sort of French-border Under-Kreisleiter type.

But show the reverse please so it is easier to tell if this is a legitimate bar or a recent fraud. I assume you have blacklighted the ribbons?

[Ulsterman]

I actually have a spiffing Wehrpass to a medical Doctor who almost fits this bar.

He served as a "Feldhilfsarzt" in Berlin from September 1918 to October, 1920. Later he gets a noncom EK2 in 1921 upon release (his only WW1 medal), becomes a MD sometime in the 1920s, is recalled in 1939 and ends up in Russia. He also got the Bulgarian and Hungarian WW1 medals in the Spring of 1941 (!) to flesh out his HK (1936) and a Westwall (1940) and a KVKx (1942).

Now if he'd been a Nazi official.......

[notned]

Thanks for the clarification Gents...so this bar Could be possible...

Interesting indeed!

With the Plethora of fakes out there...one must question EVERYTHING!

Once again, thanks for the insight.

Regards

Paul

[Richarddwh]

Ulsterman, I was suprised to win the auction to be honest, but then I think quite a few people were put off by it. I took some more pics, unfortunately the one of the reverse just wouldn't focus However I got a nice close up of the catch.

[Richarddwh]

I noticed underneath the folds of the KVK you can just see another westwall ribbon thats been used as padding.

The stitching is a little ragged for my liking, however thats just subjective. Does anyone believe the pictures of the reverse reveal any obvious misgivings?

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread I have learnt a hell of a lot.

[Guest Rick Research]

Can't say I care for the catch, but not completely unknown for wire stock like that to be used. Is the metal plate backing inside the bar-- should be visible by gently peeking under the sides-- steel or brass?

A CLEAR scan of the front and back at monitor screen size would really help. That reverse shot is like something off of eBay!

[Richarddwh]

Can't say I care for the catch, but not completely unknown for wire stock like that to be used. Is the metal plate backing inside the bar-- should be visible by gently peeking under the sides-- steel or brass?

A CLEAR scan of the front and back at monitor screen size would really help. That reverse shot is like something off of eBay!

Rick, point taken about the reverse pic! Here are two more, which I hope are better. The plate is steel you can just see a corner poking out on the left handside. Though, apologies for the flash.

[Richarddwh]

Reverse.

[Guest Rick Research]

MUCH better!

OK, beyond the peculiar but possible combination and the yucky but within norm catch...

I don't see any problems with the nice sharp scans, as long as no white is glowing under a blacklight. The condition of awards and ribbons match, that's an early KVK2X =

I'd say after some gotta-be-paranoid-these-days sweating, you've done alright!

[Richarddwh]

MUCH better!

OK, beyond the peculiar but possible combination and the yucky but within norm catch...

I don't see any problems with the nice sharp scans, as long as no white is glowing under a blacklight. The condition of awards and ribbons match, that's an early KVK2X =

I'd say after some gotta-be-paranoid-these-days sweating, you've done alright!

Excellent! Rick and everyone else, thanks for your informed comments. As a small time collector this was a big purchase for me even though it was good value, and I doubt I will ever possess another non combatant EK or NSDAP medal, and certainly not together on a medal bar!