Uncategorised German Diplomatic Passport

[Mike]

Here's another new acquisition , in keeping with my looking for the "odd ball" items ...I have not had enough time to research it properly but , I "Googled" the name and found a Family member in Germany ..so I called. The older Woman that answered didn't speak English and ..I don't speak German but , she did have a great sense of Humor ..between the 2 of us trying to understand each other , it sounded like a skit from Monty Python. She did give me a few more leads (between the 2 of us laughing!)Anyway ...it's a great Passport and I thought I'd share it with you since we never really see these that often.

Edited March 22, 2006 by Mike

[Mike]

More --

[Mike]

Photo

[Mike]

The Gent I bought it from said that he was somehow connected to clearing the Ghetto in Rome but , I have found nothing connecting him to that . The grouping did however come with a signed deposition that could have been connected with the Trials. Hope you enjoy it

[Guest Rick Research]

The 1940 Passport was signed "R?diger" for (in 1935) Vortragender Legationsrat Dr. jur. et rer. pol. Conrad Friedrich R?diger, born in Kiel 4 February 1887 and a career Foreign Officer.

Given the peculiar title "Baron" rather than the usual German "Freiherr," the only "Baron" von Plessen I could turn up

served in the 3rd Garde Ulanen Regiment--

Leutnant vorpatentiert to 19.2.13 after the war started in 1914

Oberleutnant 20.6.18 S4s

and aD in that rank.

That would have made him 3 years older than usual, if the same man.

Nothing on him in "5000 K?pfe," the 1935 "Wer Ist's?," SS Seniority Lists, etc.

[Guest Rick Research]

Aha! Old genealogist's trick --->

Cherchez la femme.

Dr.jur. Johann Baron von Plessen, born Fiume 10 July 1890, Gesandter am Quirinal a.D., in

1955

living at Marutendorff, Kreis Rendsburg, Holstein with

his very Catholic lady wife

Maria Immaculata Carolina Gr?fin von Wuthenau-Hohenthurm, born Leipzig 28 January 1909 and married at Hohenthurm 18 April 1932. No children.

She was the 6th and final child of

Saxon Generalleutnant aD (Commander of the Saint Henry Order) Carl Adam Ludwig Johann Traugott Graf von Wuthenau-Hohenthurm (1863-1946) and Maria Antonia Gr?fin Chotek von Chotkowa und Wognin (1874-1930)

From C. A. Starke Verlag's "Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels: Gr?fliche H?user A Band II," 1955.

[Glenn J]

The Baron died on 4 September 1961. If he is the 3. G.U.R. officer he was promoted from Fahnenjunker-Unteroffizier to F?hnrich on 5 Sep 14 and promoted to Leutnant (provisionally without a Patent) on 30 Oct 1914.

Regards

Glenn

[Guest Rick Research]

Also, although at this point this is only speculation-- the pool of BARON Plessens being so limited, the Ambassador's papa MAY have been

charakterisiert Fregattenkapit?n zur See ausser Dienst (war recall) Wolf Baron von Plessen,

born Altona 30 December 1854, died 23 April 1924. He served as the German naval attach? in Copenhagen from April 1918 to the end of the war. In 1908/09 as a KorvKapt zD he held Prussian: Red Eagle Order 4 with Crown, Crown Order 3, XXV Years Service Cross, and 1897 Centenary Medal; as well as Bavarian Order of St Michael 3a, Danish Dannebrog 3, Italian Sts. Maurice & Lazarus 3, Italian Crown 3, Russian Stanislaus 2, Swedish Sword 4a, and Norwegian Olaf 3a.

[Mike]

Gentleman ...what could I say but , this is just fantastic . This is very interesting to me and thank you all for the help...the best I could do was tracing the family through the Royal records (on line) and I did find a ref his Daughter (Elizabeth) who is a writer . There was a reference to a "Plessen" involved in some Diplomatic issues in the far-east but , I don't know if that was him or not .That's when I found a phone listing in Berlin and had the conversation with the old Woman , who gave me the # to her daughter ..her daughter said they were not related to the "Von Plessen's " ..she was helpful though (spoke English) and I was able to get Elizabeth's address in Italy and I was planning on writing to her. She said the Family had dropped the "Von" from the name.

This is quite a maze but ...what a challenge !

If he was involved in the Ghetto re-location ..I'd imagine there'd be many Trials documents regarding him.

Was he the senior Diplomat in Rome ?

[Guest Rick Research]

There were GRAF von Plessens (Counts), these very few Barons (normal German title was "Freiherr," the Frenchified "Baron" being used normally mostly in Bavaria and Austria for fashion's sake), and ordinary von Plessens...

all of whom seem to have been extremely remotely related, back to the year 1100 sort of distance.

Your man would seem to have been the senior German diplomat at the Italian Royal COURT. The Third Reich also maintained relations with the Vatican, and of course the Top Dog would have been assigned to the Fascist Government--

so there were THREE "German Ambassadors" in Rome... with YOUR man the Number One in the Number Two position. (I'm sure he was festooned with Italian Orders as a result.)

Although he was by assignment a "Gesandter" ("Ambassador") his Passport calls him "Botschaftsrat," which was his actual "rank"--

same as a Ministerialrat in the non-diplomatic civil service = the equivalent of a full Colonel. Botschaftsrat was "Pay Grade A1a," as was "Gesandter II. Klasse," which he may have ended up as. Both were the same salary. In the gaudy black diplomatic uniform with that huge eagle stretched across the top of the cap and a Luftwaffe-looking wreathed cockade, both these jobs wore military Major style boards (NO diplomatic shoulder boards ever used pips for rank-- beware of frauds that do!) with a gold stubby horizontal winged eagle device. In 1942 when the boards were done away with, the insignia became two side by side 5 pointed stars above the cuffs.

I cannot imagine how Baron von Plessen could have been criminally involved in the slaughter of Rome's Jews, and the fact that he was living in Holstein in 1955 seems to put that seller fairy tale (a dark, sick one, at that) to rest.

Betcha there are tons of photos of him in full "men behind foliage" diplomatic dress with all his awards, taken at the innumerable diplomatic receptions and State Dinners he must have attended.

Any Roman wartime newspapers online and name searchable?

[Mike]

Thanks for confirming that Rick ...I didn't think he was involved because as I mentioned ...I could not find anything in any of the Trials records connecting him. But I thought it was worth asking because I might have missed something . I'll post some pictures of the signed Deposition tonight

[Mike]

I cannot imagine how Baron von Plessen could have been criminally involved in the slaughter of Rome's Jews, and the fact that he was living in Holstein in 1955 seems to put that seller fairy tale (a dark, sick one, at that) to rest.

Hi Rick ..Something I wanted to mention, The gent I bought it from never implied that Plessen was "Criminally involved with the slaughter of any of Rome's Jews " (or anyone for that matter) ..he said he was involved in meetings re the Ghetto prob with the Vatican and Italian Gov , I'm sure something like that would have been a Huge Diplomatic Issue. But his connection was never used as a sales pitch or fairy tale ...I don't want anyone getting the wrong idea because the collector I bought it from is very squared away and would never do something like that.

Thanks Rick

--Mike

[Ulsterman]

see here:

http://www.grandearmee.com/browseproducts/...ndlesticks.html

Anybody got the Gotha Almanac for 1943/44? I don't find him in 1922 (my last one)- but he was probably too low on the ladder at that date.

You might want to write to the Wiesenthal Centre also about the Baron, ever read undefined ?

Edited April 20, 2006 by Ulsterman

[Chris Liontas]

An outstanding Diplomatic pass! So if I read right, this man would have been the atache to the Royal family/court of Italy. The Senior diplomat to the Vatican was Diego von Bergen, who seems to have had a very bad distaste for the Nazi pollicy to the church and to the Vatican in general. I'll post another of these in a second -- I actually have one to your fellows co-workers

[DutchBoy]

Johann Baron von Plessen and his wife had 5 children. His son Karl Leopold Peter Baron von Plessen was born in 1938 in Rome, so this confirms that von Plessen was already living there before the document you have was issued. A pair of twins was also born to them in Rome in 1940.

see: www.thepeerage.com

http://www.thepeerage.com/p4760.htm#i47600

Matt.

Aha! Old genealogist's trick --->

Cherchez la femme.

Dr.jur. Johann Baron von Plessen, born Fiume 10 July 1890, Gesandter am Quirinal a.D., in

1955

living at Marutendorff, Kreis Rendsburg, Holstein with

his very Catholic lady wife

Maria Immaculata Carolina Gr?fin von Wuthenau-Hohenthurm, born Leipzig 28 January 1909 and married at Hohenthurm 18 April 1932. No children.

She was the 6th and final child of

Saxon Generalleutnant aD (Commander of the Saint Henry Order) Carl Adam Ludwig Johann Traugott Graf von Wuthenau-Hohenthurm (1863-1946) and Maria Antonia Gr?fin Chotek von Chotkowa und Wognin (1874-1930)

From C. A. Starke Verlag's "Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels: Gr?fliche H?user A Band II," 1955.

[Claudio]

Hi Everybody,

Von Plessen wasn't Ambassador (Botschafter) in Italy but Botschaftsrat, which is something like the no. 2 or 3 (most likely the second one) of a big Embassy.

Here an extrait from Wikipedia, describing this diplomatic title:

Botschaftsrat (engl. Counsellor, frz. Conseiller, span. Consejero) ist die Bezeichnung f?r eine Rangstufe im ausw?rtigen Dienst.

Deutschland

Im deutschen Ausw?rtigen Amt entspricht er einem Beamten der Besoldungsstufe A 15 entsprechend einem Regierungsdirektor in der ?ffentlichen Verwaltung oder einem Studiendirektor an Schulen.

Kommt der Beamte vom Auslandsposten in die Zentrale des Ausw?rtigen Amtes nach Berlin zur?ck, tr?gt er nicht mehr den Titel Botschaftsrat, sondern ist dann Vortragender Legationsrat. Die n?chste Stufe ist die des Botschaftsrats Erster Klasse oder Vortragenden Legationsrats Erster Klasse, was der Besoldungsstufe A 16 bzw. B 3 entspricht. Er ist dann in der Regel Referatsleiter.

An kleineren Vertretungen wie Panama-Stadt oder Ulaanbaatar ist der Botschaftsrat oft der St?ndige Vertreter des Botschafters. Ist dieser abwesend und au?erhalb des Gastlandes, r?ckt der St?ndige Vertreter in die Funktion ? nicht Rang ? des Gesch?ftstr?gers. An gr??eren Botschaften - wie etwa in Washington D.C., Moskau oder bei der St?ndigen Vertretung bei der Europ?ischen Union in Br?ssel - arbeitet eine gr??ere Anzahl von Botschaftsr?ten, i. d. R. als Referenten innerhalb bestimmter Abteilungen (Politik, Wirtschaft, Kultur u. a.).

Von ?http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botschaftsrat?

German Ambassador in Italy was the son of the famous Husaren-Feldmarschall von Mackensen. Here's his biography. His medal bar was sold on Thies auction last year in December.

Hans Georg Viktor von Mackensen (* 26. Januar 1883 in Berlin; ? 28. September 1947 in Konstanz) war ein deutscher Staatssekret?r und Botschafter.

Von Mackensen stammte aus einer bekannten Milit?r-Familie. Sein Vater war Generalfeldmarschall August von Mackensen, sein Bruder General Eberhard von Mackensen.

Hans Georg wurde als Kind zusammen mit Prinz August Wilhelm von Preu?en erzogen, und schlug ab 1902 die Offizierslaufbahn im 1. Garderegiment zu Fu? ein. Die Ausbildung dauerte bis 1907. Parallel dazu studierte er Rechtswissenschaften.

Im Ersten Weltkrieg war von Mackensen pers?nlicher Adjutant von Prinz August Wilhelm, zuletzt als Hauptmann. Nach Kriegsende, war er im preu?ischen Justizministerium t?tig, bis er im Mai 1919 ins Ausw?rtige Amt berufen wurde. In dieser Funktion war er ab September 1923 Gesandtschaftsrat II. Klasse in Rom (Quirinal), und von August 1926 bis April 1929 in Br?ssel. Im Juli 1931 war von Mackensen Botschaftsrat von Madrid. Im Mai 1933 trat er in die NSDAP ein. Ab Dezember 1933 fungierte er als Gesandter I. Klasse in Budapest, bis er am 15. April 1937 als Nachfolger des 1936 verstorbenen Bernhard Wilhelm von B?low zum Staatssekret?r des Ausw?rtigen Amtes ernannt wurde.

Nachdem ihn sein Schwiegervater Konstantin Freiherr von Neurath am 4. Februar 1938 in seinem Amt abl?ste, wurde von Mackensen Nachfolger von Ulrich von Hassell, des wegen seiner Kritik an der Italienpolitik Hitlers zur Disposition gestellten Botschafters von Rom. Am 30. Januar 1942 erhielt er den Rang eines SS-Gruppenf?hrers beim Stab des Reichsf?hrers SS.

In seinem neuen Amt beging von Mackensen jedoch Fehler. So arbeitete er beispielsweise nicht im Sinne Hitlers auf eine baldige Absetzung Mussolinis hin. Aus diesem Grund wurde er am 2. August 1943 ins F?hrerhauptquartier beordert und nach einem Gespr?ch mit dem F?hrer seines Amtes enthoben.

Von Mai 1945 bis April 1946 war von Mackensen in franz?sischer Kriegsgefangenschaft. Ein Jahr nach seiner Entlassung, 1947, verstarb er.

Here's his beautiful medal bar.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Mike]

Funny how "things" turn out ...and turn up

http://www.regimentals.co.uk/viewitem.php?id=1055

[Mike]

I don't remember hearing about his Uniforms being out there. I wonder if any of the research provided on this thread helped someone to track down Plessen's Uniform Grouping ...or ...Maybe it's not the first time on the market and the grouping has been in collectors hands before ?

What I am upset about is that someone copied/lifted the pictures of my Plessen ID I posted here and the Dealer is including them in his sale - without even asking me or GMIC.

Read the last line of the sale description --

"Johann Baron Von Plessen diplomatic pass is in the hands of a collector in the United States with the pass photograph. A copy of this diplomatic pass does come with this uniform.

Stock no 39104"

The Dealer never Emailed me for permission .

It even looks like he used the research from the GMIC thread to make his description ...glad GMIC can help a dealer make a buck.

Adding a "Face" to a grouping does help it sell and , a Photo ID adds a lot to a group. Maybe I or GMIC should have watermarked my pictures before I posted them.

Edited February 25, 2008 by Mike

[Guest Rick Research]

Ain't it JUST a thrill AND a delight being used for a lazy slug's own no-sweat-raised profiteering?

Thanks for the heads up. This is one more name on my Ethically Challenged Black List who I will not only never recommend when asked, but recommend against doing business with.

[Mike]

Ain't it JUST a thrill AND a delight being used for a lazy slug's own no-sweat-raised profiteering?

Thanks for the heads up. This is one more name on my Ethically Challenged Black List who I will not only never recommend when asked, but recommend against doing business with.

I agree Rick ?I searched without luck ,but you and others really dug and posted a wealth of Information on him. I know that was used ..I know the Dealer saw this thread because he mentioned ? A Collector in the United States? owns the ID ..how else would he have known I had it ?

I was going to post another fantastic Document grouping but to tell you the truth , I?m worried now and don?t want to see what I own copied and used in a Book or something else.

Now I?m really starting to wonder exactly when this grouping first came out of the closet ?Imagine if it was bought from the family last year and found because of information on this thread ? I started looking for the Family but , I didn?t have any luck. But then , I had a reason to look into it and was not ?claim ?jumping? anyone.

There are still collectors who follow up Obituary notices so , it?s not that far fetched.

Is there a way GMIC can watermark the photos , or would that be too involved ?

The item and research was done here ?at least GMIC should get the credit.

[Guest Rick Research]

You can slap all sorts of things across images, but that just spoils them for US.

Anybody who can google search will find who is the REAL owner of something and where it came from FIRST. Universal scorn, derision, and contempt for credit-jumping research thieving profiteers can only rebound on THEM as word spreads. They just can't get away with it any more online.

There is no GOOD answer for getting around BAD people exploiting public online forums. Where would any of us be if we could only post in private, invitation only, closed groups?

[huddyhuddy]

Hi,

Though a late response, the passport was "issued" or signed by German foreign ministry passport department chief. The earlist sample with his signature that I have seen dates from 1928 he continued to issue "Reich passports" up to the end, 1945. I have his name some were here among my files, I will try and locate it.

I myself collect WW2 related passports for some time.

 

Neil

ourpassports.com

 

Edited August 15, 2015 by huddyhuddy
attaching images

[Mariscal Rommel]

Hi Micro.

I found this thread that I found very interesting.
I collect material from the German Diplomatic Corps so its DiplomatenPass is very interesting for me. Is it for sale or would you be interested in making a deal for another material?

Have a nice Day

Jesús