Welsh Ranks on Police LSGC medals.

[Dave Wilkinson]

14 minutes ago, bigjarofwasps said:

I believe this maybe the medal being referred to. It’s certainly the only of it’s kind, I’m aware of. Don’t recall how it was engraved, although I do remember it was. The NCA have all sorts of weird and wonderful ranks, sure this medal did include a rank, but as you say it didn’t include NCA after the recipients name. 

 

Many thanks. I was not aware that they'd produced a specific medal for the NCA. Thought (wrongly) that they were issued with the normal police version.

 

Dave.

[dpk]

I have only ever seen one for sale, about 3 years ago, on ebay. It sold for £300. Medal Yearbook 2022 has it listed (299CC) but does not show a price for the full sized award, and has £15 for a miniature. 

[bigjarofwasps]

On 22/09/2022 at 19:46, Dave Wilkinson said:

I think that perhaps the Royal Mint may be correct in what they are saying. It's quite feasible that it's been some years since the Mint held the contract for supplying Pol. Long Service Medals. Well before the introduction of the Welsh engraving? The RM now operate as a commercial concern and they compete as such for the award of contracts with other medal manufacturers. For example, they did not supply the last jubilee medals. I think a firm in Worcestershire did.  I suspect that the company that holds the contract will also do the engraving. You may well have more success with an approach to the Welsh forces direct, as you suggest.

 

If you approach the Government and start asking who they award contracts to, I suspect that they will refuse any FOI request on the basis of commercial confidentiality.   Best of luck!

 

Dave.

Thought this might be of interest?

 

A female colleague qualified for her LSGC in August last year, and was presented with it, at a ceremony a few days ago. Granted the photos of the naming isn’t ideal, but you will note that it’s in Royal Mail box and is engraved in Welsh. 
 

I wonder whether Police Medals are sent elsewhere for engraving or the previously provided information by the Royal Mint is incorrect? 

[Dave Wilkinson]

There are two possibilities. Either someone at the RM can't be bothered to deal properly with your FOI request (quite probable), or, as you suggest the medals are sent to someone else for engraving. If the RM are making the medals, then I can't reconcile the fact that they would send them to someone else for engraving. If they did then it's fairly mean of them not to tell you that, rather than saying simply "we've not engraved any medals in the Welsh language". The final bit where they indicate that they have no further information which touches upon your request is very odd.

 

I've often wondered what the "step by step" process is from the CC signing the certificate asking for the medal to be awarded, to the medal actually arriving at Police HQ for presentation. The answer to your question lies at the heart of the complete process.

 

What happens to the certificate signed by your CC? Who is it sent to? If you find out where it goes, ring them up or send them an email and try to get to the bottom of it that way. Or if you are not too far from Colwyn Bay, go and see the civvy who handles the who thing. 

 

Or on reflection, 'phone (or email) the FOI woman at the RM.    

 

Dave.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Dave Wilkinson

[bigjarofwasps]

Liverpool Medals from the BMF, provided the following information, which I thought might be of interest?

 

 

The Royal Mint don't do naming anymore as far as i'm aware, and only manufacture some of the remaining medals.

This way they can send a batch of, for example, 500 Police LSGC's in boxes, then the contractor can name them individually when one is needed and post it to the recipient.

Current medals are mostly named using Laser Engraving, this style was officially adopted circa 2008, which coincides with your theory about them only appearing since 2006, which was approximately when they ceased doing the naming at the Mint.

I would hope that in the future more Welsh recipients can take advantage of this in the future, surely if you are Welsh or in a Welsh Police Force, you would have the right to request this.

 

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

I would not take this info. at face value but would seek to have it confirmed by someone. A further FOI request to the RM posing several direct questions.

 

1. After manufacturing, do you name/engrave medals?

 

2. If the answer is "no" when did you cease to name medals? etc.

 

Along those lines.

 

Part of what Liverpool Medals say is certainly not correct. Medals are not sent to the recipient. As far as I'm aware they are sent to the Government Dept.  (with delegated powers under the Royal Warrant) that ordered, and paid for, the medal. It is then sent to the force who requested that the award be made.

As I said earlier, a step by step outline of the whole process would answer this and several other unanswered questions. 

 

Going back to the reply the RM gave you. It's interesting that they do not say "We do not name medals".

 

Why on earth they are not more helpful is beyond me. It really is like pulling teeth!

 

Dave.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Dave Wilkinson

[bigjarofwasps]

Another interesting reply on the BMF reads….

 

“I have had sight of a document that forces send to the home office stating that they do not have a full time member of staff dealing with medals, and they should order them at least 6 weeks before they are required. It also lists the official ranks that are acceptable.

With regard to the Welsh naming, South Wales Police (which is the biggest Welsh force) still haven’t put a mechanism in place to offer the option to officers. I have spoken to a number of colleagues who would have taken this option my self included.”

 

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

8 minutes ago, bigjarofwasps said:

Another interesting reply on the BMF reads….

 

“I have had sight of a document that forces send to the home office stating that they do not have a full time member of staff dealing with medals, and they should order them at least 6 weeks before they are required. It also lists the official ranks that are acceptable.

With regard to the Welsh naming, South Wales Police (which is the biggest Welsh force) still haven’t put a mechanism in place to offer the option to officers. I have spoken to a number of colleagues who would have taken this option my self included.”

 

 

Interesting. Do Welsh forces not request their police medals via the Welsh Government or does the devolved assembly not have any responsibility for policing.

 

South Wales would soon get their act together if someone there returned their medal and demanded that it be re-issued with Welsh engraving. I'm surprised that the S. Wales Fed. reps have not bottomed that one.

 

Dave.   

[Cerrig-Man]

On 29/09/2022 at 19:13, Dave Wilkinson said:

Interesting. Do Welsh forces not request their police medals via the Welsh Government or does the devolved assembly not have any responsibility for policing.

 

South Wales would soon get their act together if someone there returned their medal and demanded that it be re-issued with Welsh engraving. I'm surprised that the S. Wales Fed. reps have not bottomed that one.

 

Dave.   

 

 

It certainly is puzzling why, the biggest force in Wales doesn't appear to issue out medals in Welsh? Would be curious to know if the other two forces (Dyfed Powys & Gwent), offer this option to their officers, or is it possible that it's only currently North Wales that do? I wonder if there's perhaps some sort of costing implication? Another possibility is that this was first implemented under the former Chief Constable Richard Brunstrom, who I believe was very vocal about the Welsh language, whereas other Chiefs at the time or since, perhaps aren't so. Which leads to another question are such medals in fact unique to North Wales? 

[bigjarofwasps]

21 minutes ago, Cerrig-Man said:

 

 

It certainly is puzzling why, the biggest force in Wales doesn't appear to issue out medals in Welsh? Would be curious to know if the other two forces (Dyfed Powys & Gwent), offer this option to their officers, or is it possible that it's only currently North Wales that do? I wonder if there's perhaps some sort of costing implication? Another possibility is that this was first implemented under the former Chief Constable Richard Brunstrom, who I believe was very vocal about the Welsh language, whereas other Chiefs at the time or since, perhaps aren't so. Which leads to another question are such medals in fact unique to North Wales? 

 

He was certainly very vocal, when expressing his opinions of topics he felt strongly about, and was no stranger to being in the media.
 

He joined NWP in 2001 and left in 2009. According to Wikipedia 

 

“Welsh language
 

Brunstrom has been praised for his learning and promotion of the Welsh language, in which he holds an A level. This has led to his being created an honorary Druid by the Gorsedd of Bards list at the 2006 National Eisteddfod,[21]and in April 2007 he made a speech to Welsh communities pressure group Cymuned in which he urged politicians to update the 1993 Welsh Language Act, saying he was doing his duty by raising it.”

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Brunstrom

 

So perhaps the option for Welsh came in as a result of his speech Cymuned in 2007, or perhaps certainly shortly afterwards? This would tally in with the change in 2008, to laser engraving? Certainly the only examples that I have seen are in the laser engraving  style.

 

[bigjarofwasps]

On 29/09/2022 at 19:13, Dave Wilkinson said:

Interesting. Do Welsh forces not request their police medals via the Welsh Government or does the devolved assembly not have any responsibility for policing.

 

South Wales would soon get their act together if someone there returned their medal and demanded that it be re-issued with Welsh engraving. I'm surprised that the S. Wales Fed. reps have not bottomed that one.

 

Dave.   

Contacted my HR department, they were unable to confirm when NWP first began issuing medals in Welsh, however, they were able to confirm that there does tend to be a 50/50 mixed between English and Welsh medals issued. 

[Dave Wilkinson]

I suppose the 50/50 split is accounted for by the recipients being of either English or Welsh descent or whether perhaps they are Welsh speakers or not. A complex issue which would require some considerable research to get to the bottom of I guess.

 

Dave. 

[bigjarofwasps]

A former colleague has just received his LSGC at a presentation earlier this month. He qualified for his medal in August. So his intake should in theory be the last NWP E11R LSGC’s to be awarded. The next qualification intake being in October, so again in theory these should be the first C111R LSGC’s?

 

The recipient opted to have his medal engraved in Welsh.

 

Another point of interest, is the fact that he had already received a Special Constabulary LSGC before he became a regular officer.
 

(*photos of the engraving pending) 

[Dave Wilkinson]

Regular bobbies who have the PLSM and an SC medal are not unusual. There was a Det. Con. in my last force (Dover Port Police) who prior to joining was in receipt of an SC medal with bar (South Wales Police). In the fullness of time, he received his PLSM and a compliment of jubilee medals. He recently retired.

 

I know of a regular bobby in Staffs., who immediately after retiring (with PLSM) joined the SC. He now has the SC LS medal and bar plus jubilee medals and an MBE for his continued contribution to policing and the community. He's still serving in the SC and has said he will retire after the Coronation. I wonder why he's hanging on??

 

Dave. 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Dave Wilkinson

[bigjarofwasps]

On 27/11/2022 at 15:55, Dave Wilkinson said:

Regular bobbies who have the PLSM and an SC medal are not unusual. There was a Det. Con. in my last force (Dover Port Police) who prior to joining was in receipt of an SC medal with bar (South Wales Police). In the fullness of time, he received his PLSM and a compliment of jubilee medals. He recently retired.

 

I know of a regular bobby in Staffs., who immediately after retiring (with PLSM) joined the SC. He now has the SC LS medal and bar plus jubilee medals and an MBE for his continued contribution to policing and the community. He's still serving in the SC and has said he will retire after the Coronation. I wonder why he's hanging on??

 

Dave. 

 

Thought this group might be of interest.
 

Possibly unique…? 

 

LSGC is engraved in Welsh Prif Arol (C/Insp), recipient then went on to be the CC of the Special Constabulary. 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by bigjarofwasps

[Dave Wilkinson]

I suppose that to a certain extent his "appointment" as Chief Special is something of an anomaly. Normally such positions are filled by "career" members of the SC who have climbed the SC rank ladder and have long service. I see that he does not have an SC LS medal. Presumably he will not become eligible until he completes the required period of voluntary service. Also, I'm assuming that he's not being paid to fill the position. If he is he will be ineligible under the current terms of the Royal Warrant, unless it's been amended.   

 

I don't think the grouping is unique as such. The Staffs. SC I quoted in the previous post has all those medals (except Kosovo) plus, the SC LS medal and bar. If your man serves long enough to achieve this, I'd agree, probably unique.

 

Dave.

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Dave Wilkinson

[Zulu_00]

I think @bigjarofwasps was referring to this combination with the Welsh engraving on the LSGC. I hope that they allow PSNI officers to get Irish or Ulster Scots engraving on their medals soon.

 

Side-note @bigjarofwasps whenever I get a GMIC notification I already know what it'll be if it's from you as I've usually already seen you put it up on Facebook 🤣

[bigjarofwasps]

13 hours ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

I suppose that to a certain extent his "appointment" as Chief Special is something of an anomaly. Normally such positions are filled by "career" members of the SC who have climbed the SC rank ladder and have long service. I see that he does not have an SC LS medal. Presumably he will not become eligible until he completes the required period of voluntary service. Also, I'm assuming that he's not being paid to fill the position. If he is he will be ineligible under the current terms of the Royal Warrant, unless it's been amended.   

 

I don't think the grouping is unique as such. The Staffs. SC I quoted in the previous post has all those medals (except Kosovo) plus, the SC LS medal and bar. If your man serves long enough to achieve this, I'd agree, probably unique.

 

Dave.

 

I seem to recall that he is in fact paid as the Special CC, so as you say he won’t potentially qualify for an additional LSGC. I assume also that he is not expecting a Coronation medal as he’s only had his medals mounted in the last few days.

 

As Zulu notes, the point I was trying to relate was. I’m not aware of any other Prif Arol LSGC’s,  let alone a group that also includes the Kosovo medal and an MBE. But I do take your point about all the medals being general run of the mill in their own right. It’s just the Welsh engraving that sets them apart from other police medals, which I particularly like. 

[Dave Wilkinson]

I would have thought that there must be several more Ch.Insps. in NWP who have had their LS medals issued with their rank in Welsh. But perhaps not. But I do appreciate the "unique" point you make. I still find it really odd that the other Welsh forces don't seem to have embraced the concept of giving staff the option of having their medals named with their rank in Welsh. They are obviously not interested, or else the possibility has not occurred to them. 

 

Dave.

[bigjarofwasps]

23 hours ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

I would have thought that there must be several more Ch.Insps. in NWP who have had their LS medals issued with their rank in Welsh. But perhaps not. But I do appreciate the "unique" point you make. I still find it really odd that the other Welsh forces don't seem to have embraced the concept of giving staff the option of having their medals named with their rank in Welsh. They are obviously not interested, or else the possibility has not occurred to them. 

 

Dave.

Considering the option to have a Welsh engraved medal has been around for some 14 years now, it is very surprising that none to my knowledge have appeared on the market yet? 

NWP issue them on a general 50/50 percentage. As far as I’m aware none of the other 3 Welsh forces issue them at all!! 

It should also be considered that it is, no longer possible to qualify for an E11R version….
 

 

[bigjarofwasps]

The rolling count of physical examples that I’ve actually seen are as follows…

 

3 to Cwnst

1 to Rhing

1 to Prif Arol

 

 

[Zulu_00]

@bigjarofwasps I take it you'll be getting yours engraved in Welsh?

[Dave Wilkinson]

3 hours ago, Zulu_00 said:

@bigjarofwasps I take it you'll be getting yours engraved in Welsh?

Yes, he is. He's said that on more than one occasion previously.

 

Dave.

[Zulu_00]

1 hour ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

Yes, he is. He's said that on more than one occasion previously.

 

Dave.

 

Ah thanks for the snarky comment sorry that's on me for not having had the time in my life to read through every single comment 🙏🏻

[Dave Wilkinson]

29 minutes ago, Zulu_00 said:

 

Ah thanks for the snarky comment sorry that's on me for not having had the time in my life to read through every single comment 🙏🏻

My apologies, it was not intended as such. I was trying to be helpful.

 

Dave.👍

Edited December 4, 2022 by Dave Wilkinson