Freikorps, Grenzschutz Flieger-Abteilung Nr. 409

[dante]

Welcome your thoughts on this document, also

1) Can anyone decipher his name; where he was from, DoB;

2) Was he a flier or observer (or what)

3) Can anyone make out the unit he served in when he won the EK2, EK1

any other information that could help with research gratefully received, thanks, Paul  

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think EK2, EK1, Wound in Silver and Silesian Eagle II and I class. For some reason EK2 only in August 18 and EK1 in October 18

 

best

Chris

[dante]

Cheers Chris, any thoughts on the name?

[dante]

So Far I have,

1908; Enlisted 3rd Grenadier Regiment

1914;  Flieger-Ersatz-Abteilung 5 and  Feld-Flieger-Abteilung 31

1915 Feld-Flieger-Abteilung 61

1916  Flieger-Beobachter-Schule ?? 

1917 Jagdstaffel 30 

1918  Freikorps, Grenzschutz Flieger-Abteilung Nr. 409

Thoughts...?

 

[bolewts58]

Gerhard Bothke.

[dante]

Cheer Mr B 

[bolewts58]

I don't think he was a pilot, but likely ground crew. As I mentioned to you before on another forum, the Freikorps Flieger Abteilungen were formed in December 1918, originally to serve in Eastern border defense and sometime in January or early February were officially numbered FA400-433 and had 150 planes in total. They were disbanded in September 1919. FA409 (your guy) was originally designated Grenzschutz Flieger-Abteilung Schlesien before getting the number 409.

[dante]

Many thanks, "another forum" interesting as I have just got this so maybe the previous owner, could you pm me or give a hint as to the forum as it came without research, my feelings are he was an observer...on the basis of the EK1...but only if the EK1 is ok?.....thoughts?

[dunmac96]

Hi,

       His name is quite clearly Kurt Bothke in the enlarged document.

                                            

                                                                                                             Duncan.

[bolewts58]

8 hours ago, dante said:

Many thanks, "another forum" interesting as I have just got this so maybe the previous owner, could you pm me or give a hint as to the forum as it came without research, my feelings are he was an observer...on the basis of the EK1...but only if the EK1 is ok?.....thoughts?

I was mistaken. I discussed it at length on this forum but in the Imperial research thread.

I'm not sure what more you hoped to find out by posting it here because the same people read both threads. I think you've pretty well exhausted the information on the document itself. It requires research about the units, which you can do to some extent online.I agree he was likely an observer as he went to observer school in  Königsberg on November 26, 1915 (not 1916). If I read it correctly, he was a "Luftschutz Offizier" in 1917.

[dante]

Bryan your comment " I'm not sure what more you hoped to find out by posting it here"  is because it is post 1918, and having done so have received a lot more interest both public and private...it also gives those who are solely interested in Freikorps an opportunity to see the document

Its not only about what we gain, but about sharing, which you have have done most successfully on this forum and others...

[bolewts58]

2 minutes ago, dante said:

Bryan your comment " I'm not sure what more you hoped to find out by posting it here"  is because it is post 1918, and having done so have received a lot more interest both public and private...it also gives those who are solely interested in Freikorps an opportunity to see the document

Its not only about what we gain, but about sharing, which you have have done most successfully on this forum and others...

I didn't mean it wasn't worth sharing. I really appreciate seeing it. I wish it was mine as I collect anything to do with Freikorps flying units. I only meant that I'm not sure what more you can learn here. It deserves research beyond this forum. By the way, Grenzschutz FA 409 also served in the Baltic in 1919. But, there's no indication here that Bothke went with them when they transferred to Riga from Silesia.

[dante]

None taken Bryan, I should have put here in the first place, yes I saw that he was with Gem? Staffel 21, Oberkommandos Nord from May to June 1919? but was unsure if they were in the Baltic or Pomerania? 

[Soderbaum]

Hi

I actually have some doubts about this document. It is possible that everything written there could be "wrong".

just some thoughts

Gunnar

[dante]

Please elaborate...and based on what evidence....????

[Chris Boonzaier]

? this should be interesting... how "wrong"?

[bolewts58]

8 hours ago, Soderbaum said:

Hi

I actually have some doubts about this document. It is possible that everything written there could be "wrong".

just some thoughts

Gunnar

You make a reckless statement like that, but don't provide one bit of evidence. The information on the document fits the historical record, is logical and as far as I'm concerned it's 100% genuine. So, what (if anything) is your proof? It better be pretty definitive.

Edited October 9, 2016 by bolewts58

[Soderbaum]

Hi

I have read through thousands of similar documents both from ancestry.de and the BAMA archive in Freiburg(which also includes the Freikorps time). And as I say I have a feeling that this document is wrong. And my statement is far from being any reckless statement.

Basically all flyers and ground-crew who served within AFP 6 at are noted on ancestry.de because the files from this unit have survived. He is not there.

He is noted as observer being shortly at Jasta 30, such units did not have observers except sometimes the OzbV who are officers with flying badges(an demand). The notes that he served as LSO is also ridiculous. However in this case an experienced Vfw or Offst could get such job. 

The awards seems written afterwards on the document and that an Flg could get the EKI is also basically impossible w/o being a good/known flyer. He do not have any flying badge listed which point to an ground crew.

The YOB on the document have a big black mark over it it which makes it unreadable and hard to double check.

The document is also written in a unprofessional way which dont fits similar documents I have read.

Sorry if give my opinions and I will avoid such statements in the future because I dont like to get attacked ...:(

Gunnar

[Chris Boonzaier]

25 minutes ago, Soderbaum said:

Hi

Sorry if give my opinions and I will avoid such statements in the future because I dont like to get attacked ...:(

Gunnar

Hi Gunnar,

All opinions are welcome, we are here for discussion.

All the best

Chris

8 hours ago, bolewts58 said:

You make a reckless statement like that, but don't provide one bit of evidence. The information on the document fits the historical record, is logical and as far as I'm concerned it's 100% genuine. So, what (if anything) is your proof? It better be pretty definitive.

All opinions are welcome and no opinion has to be definative,

 

best

Chris

It is hard to say just looking at the pics, but for my 2c, something I would look at closely....

These Auszugs are not like a Militärpass. i.e. they were not filled out over time, by different hands, but by a clerk in one go.

What gives me a little bit of concern is that the awards, other than EK2, may all have been added at a later date.

Reason being.... the spacing... and the way the "1" is entered in the date of the EK1 award, the only place on the whole document where it was entered as such. The ink seems to be a little different as well.

Do you know the origin of the document?

[bolewts58]

of course the more opinions the better...So, maybe not definitive, but with believable evidence.

 

Chris you have a point. The awards after the EKII look as if they were added later by another hand. This doesn't bother me too much. They could have just been an addendum of missing information. The Grenzschutz-Flieger Abteilung 409 stamp looks correct to me and I do know what they are supposed to look like. Honestly, there aren't too many people around who know what these stamps look like to try to fake them. But, it would be good to have it in hand to examine everything.

The one thing that does bother me is all the ink staining at the bottom.

If there are some issues, it seems odd to me that anyone would tamper with or outright fake a Stammrolle. They're not worth all that much (even this one) compared to the work involved.

Edited October 9, 2016 by bolewts58

[dante]

The EK1 has imho been added, I thought that at the time, it was not sold as Freikorps just came with a bundle of docs, if it had been a recent deception then it would have been either marketed or promoted as a "rare" document to maximise its value....the cost of manufacturing such would be very costly....however it may have been done by the recipient, to make him a little more heroic, down the bierkeller, he is also not noted on Ancestry at all with that name or DoB, 

What I would like is a little more forensic information on the document such as units and operations and personnel info to clarify the points raised

 

[Chris Boonzaier]

If the awards were added, it is then indeed possible that the man was ground crew for the unit and would give credit to Gunnar's argument.

I must say, knowing it did not cost an arm and a leg makes me feel happier, and I do enjoy it when a doc provokes discussion like this, whether it be good or bad.

[bolewts58]

The writing is all Kurrenschrift and I think contemporary to the period, although quite sloppy, even if it was embellished a bit by someone or the guy himself. Kurrentschrift is difficult to do and is pretty much a lost art, today. I'm sure there are people who still know how to write this way. But, it's not so common.

But as far as the awards go, whether an observer or ground crew, he still would have gotten the Silesian Eagle I and II, based on service in FA409.

Also, Gunnar, I wasn't attacking you. I was just reacting to your original statement which had no explanation. Now that you've explained in some detail, you raise a number of very valid points.

[GreyC]

This is an old thread, but maybe some of you read this by chance.

In that thread reasonable doubt was voiced with regards to authenticity of the document. After careful examination I can add two points that were not mentioned before and which nurture the doubt:

In the document his parents are given as Ferdinand and Marie Bothke, the profession of the father is given as architect, as place of resindency of parents Berlin-Charlottenburg. I checked the Berlin Adressbooks for 1908, the date Paul Bothke began service in the army, 1914 and 1918/19. NO Ferdinand Bothke listed in all of Berlin, let alone Charlottenburg. Also, I checked for Ferdinand B. in a large list of over 23.000 architects active in Germany in the 19th and 20th century NO Ferdinand Bothke. Does not mean the Kriegsstammrollenauszug is faked, but should add doubt.

ALSO: A Verwundetenabzeichen in silber (woundbadge in silver) is noted as being awarded to him. However all the hospital stints which are listed are because of Mittelohrentzündung and the like (inflammation of the middle ear) this is not something you got the Verwundetenabzeichen for!

More doubt!

I checked the loss lists. For getting a woundbadge in silver at least three certified WIA incidents had to occur. There is only one Paul Bothke listed once, and he is from Tilsit, not Arendswalde as given in the document.

Almost insurmountable doubt.

GreyC

Edited January 19, 2021 by GreyC

[dante]

Strangely been researching this today, 

 

Have found him;  

Leo Hermann Paul Bothke

Birth 29. Sep 1887 (29 Sep 1887) (matches the document)

Marriage 16. Jun 1930 (16 Jun 1930) Berlin, Berlin, Deutschland (Germany)