Identification of a medal ribbon.

[Guy]

Identification of a medal ribbon.

Does anyone know what the medal ribbon with the black 1 means ?

Thanks

 

 

[Hugh]

Thailand - Order of the White Elephant.  Not sure of the class.  My book shows metal devices to show class.  Probably Officer or Commander.

Who's the recipient? 

[dedehansen]

Hi Guy,

I think it is this one.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weißer_Elefantenorden

Kind regards
Andreas

[Guy]

Thanks my friends for the identification.

The recipient :  Du Four J.C.H.M

[Stuka f]

Gosh, had to look very closely for the "black one"! (lol!)

And what is the ribbon just above the "black one", please.

[922F]

It's the Commemorative Cross of the House of King Albert  [Croix Commémorative de la Maison du Roi Albert -Herinneringskruis van het Huis van Koning Albert], established in May, 1934 and awarded to those close to the royal household, supposedly only during that month.  A relatively rare award; copies exist.  The centers are separately affixed and sometimes missing.   Image below  [there’s a veterans’ organization with a quite similar badge].   

[Guy]

2 hours ago, Stuka f said:

Gosh, had to look very closely for the "black one"! (lol!)

And what is the ribbon just above the "black one", please.

Hello Kris,

Thats the "Cross of the Black Spot"

@922F

He was :

Officier attaché à la maison de Roi et attaché hononaire au Cabinet de Roi.

This is also one of the many officers that I have to check their files in the Royal Army Museum in Brussels.
But for lack of time I do not succeed yet
That's something I have to do when I retire

[Stuka f]

Thanks guy's! :-)

Indeed a rare medal; never saw one so far.

11 hours ago, Guy said:

I have to check their files in the Royal Army Museum in Brussels.
But for lack of time I do not succeed yet
That's something I have to do when I retire

Are you retiring soon?

Because it seems the Museum is going to close down and the collection will be spread over other existing museum's...

[Guy]

 

On ‎1‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 07:24, 922F said:

It's the Commemorative Cross of the House of King Albert  [Croix Commémorative de la Maison du Roi Albert -Herinneringskruis van het Huis van Koning Albert], established in May, 1934 and awarded to those close to the royal household, supposedly only during that month.  A relatively rare award; copies exist.  The centers are separately affixed and sometimes missing.   Image below  [there’s a veterans’ organization with a quite similar badge].   

922F,

What is the difference between the two medals.

What is the difference between the fake/copy  and the real one ?

Edited February 2, 2017 by Guy
wrong text

[VC89]

4 hours ago, Guy said:

What is the difference between the two medals.

Picture 1 is the front of the medal and the "A" is the revers. (If this is what you mean).

I'm very interested in the difference between a copy and a real one (and if possible, the documentation or source of it) since I have the medal in my collection. (see pics)

 

Vincent

[VC89]

According to Borné this medal was created by King Leopold III by Decree on 10 may 1934, aiming to award those who served  Albert I, who died on 17 january 1934.

It was awarded to those who served in the royal households of Albert I and/or queen Elisabeth (1909-1934) and/or the households when they were the Count and Countess of Flanders (1905-1909).

So it might be possible that they were all awarded during the month may of 1934, since no one could qualify after that date. Unfortunately Borné does not mention it.

 

Vincent

[Guy]

922F,

Thanks for that answer.

I mean the difference between de real an a copy /fake medal ?

That difference, I would like to know.

I have also the Borné in my libary

 

[922F]

Offhand, I recall detailed description of the award & instituting decree most particuliarly in Quinot, 5th edition.  I bet that other general works on Belgian awards will have information as well.  

These awards were best discussed at a public event, in my experience, at a MEDEC meeting in Antwerp in mid-1994.  Samples of genuine pieces, cased and uncased, were displayed alongside fakes.  Can't remember which firm made them, de Greef or Fonson.  Do not remember an awarding document displayed at the meeting [or if one existed].  Think it could not be awarded posthumously.  I certainly do recall that the the award always had to be worn full-size or miniature from the ribbon and that service ribbons were not supposed to be worn with out the 'bijou'.  I seem to remember that Willy D. or Eric T. had a copy of the 10 May decree.   Eric T. had some information regarding it at one of the Army Museum shows about that time as well.  Maybe someone wrote an article in the MEDEC journal concerning around 1994-5??  My memory is weak!!

I believe that Eric T. is a GMIC member perhaps he will see this and clarify.

 

Overall, fakes look somewhat like copy 100th Anniversary Ostend-Dover Ferry Line or Telegrapf commemoration decorations in workmanship--not as crisp detail or finishing as originals.  Fakes possibly made using the veteran's society badge corpus but with replaced centers and the "A" in the angle of the arms either not pierced or not apparently separately attached.  The enamel is flat on the arms not slightly domed.  Seem to recall that the centers looked more like thin castings rather than stampings.  It was possible in the mid-'90's to get ribbon from De Greef.

Somewhere, maybe in the Dynasty Museum, there's supposedly a roll of people awarded this decoration but I never saw it.  

[Megan]

My notes say that it was awarded to all living members of the Royal Household on 10 May 1934.

Still looking for a good picture of the beast for my website...

[VC89]

15 hours ago, 922F said:

Fakes possibly made using the veteran's society badge corpus but with replaced centers and the "A" in the angle of the arms either not pierced or not apparently separately attached.

Is this the veteran's medal that you mean? If they did use this it should be easy to recognize. According to an article by Borné it was created by the National Union of Military Veterans of Leopold II (wich was founded in 1947).

 
     

Vincent

[922F]

Yes, same one.  However, the fakers, besides replacing the ribbon and centers, must have used a varient veterans' badge type as their begining point as copy crosses were enameled on the reverse. These copies did not have any legend struck into them as the veterans' badges do.  I remember a copy with non-pierced monogram that looked like the monogram was struck when the cross was struck, similar, in that respect, to your example on the far left.   I had not seen the type of veterans' badge without monogram in the arms before.  

 

Possibly, and maybe easier, copies may have started with a Military Cross (Croix Militaire/Militaire Kruis] corpus.  This would make the enamel work easier, would not have problem of removing die-struck legend, and fake monogram could disguise removal of the swords.  

[VC89]

@922F

You spoke about seeing cased ones in 1994. Do you, by any chance, remember the box it was in. Mine came in a red one with a crown on it (J. Fonson) and I presume this is not the original box but one for the Order of the Crown. But since I haven't seen a cased example of this medal I can't be certain.

 

Vincent

[922F]

Sorry, do not remember.  However, I had/have a cased example and am now in the process of unpacking nearly 60 years worth of collection [and have done for past 3 years, so no promise when or what I find] and when/if it turns up will certainly post bijou and case here.  Don't recall but mine may have a missing reverse center.

[VC89]

60 years ... that must be a hell of a collection you got. I hope you can find the medal and many other "hidden" or "lost" teasures . Don't feel shy to share the rare or uncommon ones with us .

 

Vincent

[922F]

Found 2 cased examples of the Commemorative Cross of the House of King Albert  [Croix Commémorative de la Maison du Roi Albert -Herinneringskruis van het Huis van Koning Albert], established in May, 1934.  Just to complicate life, both in Wolfers cases but one case red exterior and one with black exterior!!   Always possible cases switched--perhaps red case is actual item due to Wolfers' logo format.   Crosses appear identical, images depict cross above/below their respective cases.   No apparent maker marks on either piece.

Edited May 14, 2017 by 922F
spelchek

[VC89]

Thank you, 922F, for showing.

I have one case almost exactly like yours (the dark one) but it has an "O" under the crowned "A". On an other forum (https://www.ablhistoryforum.be/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=6331) they stated that it was for an Officer's cross of the Order of Leopold during the reign of King Albert I. My case is definitly switched because I found a Belgian War Cross (1940) in it.

 

Vincent

 

[922F]

Hello Vincent,  Yes, in my experience, an "O" stamped on the outer lid indicates a case for an officer level distinction for one of the National Orders.  And, on cursory inspection, there's the 'imprint' of what looks like a circular rosette impression in the upper inner lid of my illustrated black case.  This plus your comment, the more 'moderne' appearance [and later type] of the Wolfer logo and case outer lid embossed "A" style may mean that the red case is a more likely candidate for 'original case'.

Should add that neither case inner bottom is fitted for the insignia [no 'nest'] although the red case padding under the felt seems like it bears a hollow where the badge has rested for a long time.  Cheers, EJ