Bulgarian Bravery order - early Austrian made

[new world]

I would be interested to see better photo of the star in the top left corner - white one on a small stand.

That star looks like 1st class and is extremely rare!!!

[Igor Ostapenko]

On 26.03.2017 at 01:31, Graf said:

Hi New World,

 

i think in the very early stages the Order for Bravery was called Military Order.

 

i suspect once the Order for Military Merit was introduced the Order for Bravery  was called Military Order for Bravery  not to be confused with the new Military Order

as you can see during Battennberg period was called also Military Order only

for the first time you can see from the last pictures, from King Ferdinand period, was called Military Order for Bravery

Hi Graf, 

can you post full 2nd page of document of Kara-Stoyanov, with date and number ?

[Graf]

Hi Igor

Here are 2 more pictures

[Igor Ostapenko]

Thank you, Graf ! 

[new world]

26 minutes ago, Igor Ostapenko said:

Thank you, Graf ! 

Igor, where did this document come from?

[Igor Ostapenko]

This document from bulgarian archives 

[new world]

On 3/24/2017 at 09:49, V.Vazov said:

Hi Ilieff,

Many thanks for this great analysis ! I find especially impressive and perfectly logical the last part regarding the need of bravery orders after the Serbo-Bulgarian war and the suspended relations with Russia. This demostrates that we should be focused on the historical conjuncture as well, when developing our suggestions  about the orders and putting them in the right context.

Meanwhile I have continued our research and found another early piece that differs from the "mainstream" examples.

Apparently it was sold some years ago by a Bulgarian dealer that seems no longer be involved, but sold an extraordinary quantity of orders, amongst which a lot of rare pieces (as visible on his site).

This given piece has a "thick crown" like the Battenberg 3rd grades or the 3 grade from 1915 with И on the reverse. Personally, I've never seen such crown on a 2 or 1 grade badge. There are also differences in the central medallion.

As you can see, the sellers' site claims it was reworded during a visit of the Russian emperor in 1902 and a memorial opening. The information is not correct. There is an opening on the occasion of an anniversary of the war, but of a church and not a memorial. Besides the Russian emperor is not attending, but his officials are sent on his behalf.

Are these mismatches in the context compromising as well the information about the order, I don't know. But it's a very interesting early  piece. Have anyone seen it before? Do we have some additional information?

Best,

Vazov

I just noticed that this dealer is incorrect in his description.  He states that 2nd class cross in combination with the star becomes 1st class set.

He essentially implies that 1st and 2nd class crosses are identical. Well, they are not - 1st class cross is noticeably larger than 2nd class cross.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2017 by new world

[Graf]

Hi Ilieff,

I was looking in your post 23 from 29 of March

The second picture from a collector in Bulgaria - the enamel of the cross look very similar to the enamel of another rare Variation of this Class

I recently managed to get a hold of this Variation and I found out that those crosses were made in France There is a French Mark for Silver "boar head",

This support the theory that these crosses are made by official  companies and makers and are not privately made. Why and when is still mystery.

 

Best

 

Graf

[Igor Ostapenko]

I want to see ONE photo with some order 

[ilieff]

20 hours ago, Graf said:

Hi Ilieff,

I was looking in your post 23 from 29 of March...

Hi all,

Thanks Graf, I did notice myself that the pattern looks similar and I am prone to think that these are French-made issues but unless I see a maker's marking on a 'lily' order, I'd consider it as 'to be confirmed'.

I've made this comparison collage of the 'lily' IV class orders. From the images I've seen here, at museums and online, there are at least 6 variations with lilies (depending on the swords; shape of the lily, lion etc.;  material used;  size; notches etc. ) Quite a lot of variance out there...

Ilieff

 

[Graf]

Hi Ilieff,

 

Good Job Thanks

 

No 1 is from my collection and it is a silvered brass No any marks evident on the cross

Till now in the literature this Variant was divided on two type with smooth borders {2, 4, 5 and 6) and attached swords and with notched borders and free standing swords {1 and 3)

From your research is evident that it is not possible to define only two types It is also indicative that this variant could have been made by more then one maker. That raises the questions - When exactly it was made What period it could be fitted and  What was the reason this variant to be made

The question about the material of No 2 could be answered only by the collector who has it

[ilieff]

I am pretty sure no.2 is featured in Pavlov's book, too. Unsure whose is that order though.

Also, in Petrov's book there's [what appears to be] a silver sample with lily of the  '1915' type, so that is yet another variation.

[V.Vazov]

Hi Gentlemen,

Thanks to both of you for the extensive survey.

In my modest opinion, the main common details here are three:

- the big Lilly;

- the particular lion;

- the particular and very well finished monogram of Prince Alexander I;

I know that you don't share my view that here we have a completely separate emission, but the multiple variations (sign of different manufacturers) speaks exactly of this.

Furthermore, I managed to find a photo of another piece of this emission, a First Class breast star (I was sure it exists):

This means that we already have found photos of the following:

- 4 grade 2 class;

- a star 4 grade 1 class like without years on it, just 7 dots;

- 3 grade 2 class;

- 1 grade badge + star;

Or is it just variations of late Battenberg/ early Ferdinand emission? What do you think?

Regarding the supposed 1915 emission of a 4 grade 2 class with big Lilly, here's a photo from Denkov's book. Perhaps it was ordered to the same manufacturer that made the 7 dots pieces. I personally never saw such a piece or a photo of it outside the books, have anyone did?

Best regards,

Vazov

Edited August 28, 2017 by V.Vazov

[ilieff]

I think I found it. 

General Kantardziev appears to be wearing a  'lily' order (images 1 and 2). According to Wikipedia, he has been given the award for his deeds in the war with Serbia in 1885. Actual decoration took place after the conflict ended (perhaps in 1886). 

Another general - Ivan Popov is pictured under number 3 and the corresponding zoomed-in image of his order under number 4. Unfortunately, there are no better quality images out there in the internet, so I cannot be certain for either of these cases. 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Graf]

Hi

As it is suspected the this Model was one of the first ones.

Also we can speculate that it was given mainly to high ranking Officers, that can explain the lower numbers seen then the standard crosses.we also can speculate that any of the rare Models we see were given only to high ranking Officers and on special ceremonies

[Igor Ostapenko]

On 8 בספטמבר 2017 at 18:47, ilieff said:

I think I found it. 

General Kantardziev appears to be wearing a  'lily' order (images 1 and 2). According to Wikipedia, he has been given the award for his deeds in the war with Serbia in 1885. Actual decoration took place after the conflict ended (perhaps in 1886). 

Another general - Ivan Popov is pictured under number 3 and the corresponding zoomed-in image of his order under number 4. Unfortunately, there are no better quality images out there in the internet, so I cannot be certain for either of these cases. 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

General Кръстю Златарев awarded for 1885 war . 

 

9 hours ago, Graf said:

Hi

As it is suspected the this Model was one of the first ones.

Also we can speculate that it was given mainly to high ranking Officers, that can explain the lower numbers seen then the standard crosses.we also can speculate that any of the rare Models we see were given only to high ranking Officers and on special ceremonies

IMHO - these orders was privately purshese from juvelier store. 

from 1885 to 1915 - 30 years and some orders looks like this 

Prince of Bulgaria was high ranking Officer ? 

Nikola Genev receive Order for 1885 war ( photo 1894 y. from my collection )

and photo of old general Genev from wikipedia 

this order in museum exposition 

[Igor Ostapenko]

few officers with orders for 1885 

 

 

and 

 

 

  http://gmic.co.uk/topic/13481-bulgaria-military-order-for-bravery-1879-model/  

 

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by Igor Ostapenko

[ilieff]

Igor, 

What Graf mentioned is pure [yet plausible] speculation, please don't take it literally, as most of us have been speculating in this thread lately.

Being high-ranking officers would not mean that they were given special issues of orders for bravery. This is proven by the above photos and my similar research (which can actually indicate that lily crosses were being worn by ranks as low as majors). As I said before, I am prone to think that these are private issues. However, I cannot understand the logic of having brass/bronze orders with lily - I assume that if people can afford a private issue order, they'd understandably order it in solid silver instead.

 

[Graf]

Hi Ilieff,

That you for getting my massage  We did not write any book We did not publish any articles. We are pure collectors who bang our heads to clear some facts that are not in the books.using our knowledge and materials that are in our hands or in books and on internet

Igor is sometime hot headed It is OK with me It shows eagerness to show a point All of us we have different ways to get our points. Thanks God it is just a Forum on Internet Can you imagine what could be if we are locked in a room and try to get our point. There could be a fist fight at some stage Like in many Parliaments around the world.

That is the nature of  Debate -could be very hot sometimes

I have more information regarding the French made Bravery order with French mark for Silver post #33 from 27 of August

It comes from an expert on Bulgarian Orders

"the bravery order with the boar head mark for Silver is very interesting.

I would like to assume that the jeweller  Kretly in Paris may be considered for this early type,

in conjunction with this mark.

I have not seen such a punch yet on a bravery order, but on many decorations of civil merit order I can prove "Kretly"."

That is some proof that all those Models were not privately made but by some of the best makers at that time Why?...to bang our heads even further

Hi Ilieff -Good point if they are made privately ...why bronze.

 

BTW Thank you both for the photos

Cheers

Edited September 11, 2017 by Graf

[V.Vazov]

Dear Gentlemen,

As I continue relentlessly my research and speculations on the "9 dots" sub-emission or whatever it is, please find attached a photo of a 2 class badge. 

Now we're missing, I believe, only a first class star example and we'll have the entire 9 dots series.

As you can see, the 9 dots are here, as well as the radial, sun-like red enamel in the center medallion. The green enamel is darker. However the lion is not like the small lion in the other 9 dots  examples we have, but he's neither like in the classic 7 dots. I'd say something in between. The crown is a typical 7 dots one.

Perhaps we're speaking of the same manufacturer and here we have a piece he made for the "mainstream" emission wether the other examples were privately made pieces.

Any thoughts?

Best, 

Vazov

[new world]

17 hours ago, V.Vazov said:

...Now we're missing, I believe, only a first class star example and we'll have the entire 9 dots series. ...

Very interesting example, thank you for posting!

It has distinct features which set it apart from traditional per-1915 issues - 9 dots instead of 7, radial pattern on the central red medallion.  

Can you please elaborate on your statement that we now have the entire 9 dots series? The only award with 9 dots apart from 2nd class cross in this discussion thread I see is breast star with white enamel, which was introduced for 1915 emission. 

Perhaps I missed them, but where are photos of 1st, 3rd and 4th class crosses?    

 

[ilieff]

Very interesting example indeed. Well done, Vazov. 

Just wanted to say that the radial pattern is featured in the first [Battenberg] emissions of the order, so it's not a new thing for the order, in general. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by ilieff

[Graf]

Hi

I want to share this picture with you

This is the French text translation :

Insignia of the order of bravery that belonged to William II (1859-1941), King of Prussia and emperor of Germany
Silver,gold plated and enamel
Special Model for "heads of the dead" (Backhand)
1914-1918

[new world]

Stunning!

Do you have photo of other side?

 

[ilieff]

Hi,

This is [supposedly] the badge which was given to the Kaiser during WW1. It's either identical or very very similar to the badge worn by King Ferdinand himself (picture of His set is available at my website).

This badge is currently stashed at the Museum of the Order of Légion d'Honneur in Paris and is own by an annonymous collector.

Strangely, some sources suggest that this set was adorned with diamonds, too.

By the way, have you got any idea about the fate of the other decorations which beloged to the Kaiser? I emailed the museum in Doorn a while ago but never got a response back. Has anyone been there?