Prussian medal bar with Austrian medals.

[johannis]

Hello.
I won an auction with this medal bar today.
I think, the medal bar is very interesting.
I add photos from the auction.
I have a few questions to all and please want yours help.
An Prussian medal bar with Austrian medals, is it real or not?
From WWI to end of the 30s is to long time,is it possible to create such a composition without long service medals?
On the auctions photos all the medals do not all belong to the medal bar, anyone can give me the right order.
Thanks,any opinion is welcome.
Best regards,jannis.
 

[laurentius]

I think it's credible, sure, some of the medals don't belong on the bar, but the bar itself is most certainly real. On the first ribbon should be a regular iron cross 2.st class and on the second ribbon should be a HK with swords. On the third ribbon should come the golden merit cross. On the fourth ribbon should come the silver merit cross. On the fifth ribbon should come the karl merit medal with the crown. The sixt ribbon should have the woundbadge, which was in Austria, contrary to other countries, a medal for a bar instead of a ´´steckabzeichen´´ like in germany. On the seventh ribbon should come the Karl-truppen kreuz and on the last ribbon should come the austrian annexation medal.
 

Kind regards, Laurentius

Although I must admit that the colours of the ribbons seem of, the last medal was awarded last, in 1938, yet it has lost more colour than the austrian ribbons, which are still minty red
 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[johannis]

Hello Laurentius  .
First, many thanks for your help.
If the first one is in the row is an EK2 then all others are right.
What irritates me is that in the medals was not an EK2 but a Prussian Military Merit Cross (militärisches Verdienstkreuz) and has the same band as the EK2.
Thanks again.
Regards, Jannis.

[dedehansen]

Hi Jannis,

I do not believe that an EK2 is missing. I think that

this is a NCO bar, and then there should be the Krieger Verdienstmedaille.

Kind regards
Andreas

[johannis]

Hello.
Many thanks Andreas for the information.
You are right, the Krieger Verdienstmedaille might fit.
Please, two question.
Firstly, how did you recognize that it is an NCO bar?
Secondly, I thought,because the first two are Prussian medalss is the medal bar also.
Because the Krieger Verdienstmedaille  is awarded only to foreign soldiers is the logical way the medal bar Austrian.
Why have a Austrian medal bar  Foreign- Prussian medals at the beginning and not at the end?
Thanks, for any help.
Regards, Jannis.

Hallo.
Viele Dank Andreas fuer die Informationen.
Sie haben recht,der Krieger Verdienstmedaille konnte passen.
Bitte,zwei Frage.
Erstens,wie haben Sie erkannt dass es eine NCO bar ist?
Zweitens,ich dachte,da die erste zwei Preusse medaillien sind,ist die Ordenspange auch,
da aber der Krieger Verdienstmedaille nur an auslaendische Soldaten verliehen wird ist die logische weise Österreichische.
Warum hat sie dan die Auslaendische-Preusse medaillien am Anfang und nicht am Ende?
Danke,fuer jede Hilfe.
Gruesse,Jannis.

[dedehansen]

Hi Jannis,

- Austrian because there is an austrian wounded medal on it, a German would have gotten a Verwundetenabzeichen.

- NCO because I have learned, that the Verdienstkreuze, depending on the class, were only awarded

to non-commissioned officers and enlisted ranks.

- The order of the medals is so, because the Austrian army was taken over by the German army in 1938,

and from that time the order of the medals are correct. 

Kind regards
Andreas

[johannis]

Hello Andreas.
Again, many thanks, for the quick but above all excellent help.
Best regards, Jannis.

 

[MonteSanto]

On ‎03‎.‎07‎.‎2017 at 20:18, johannis said:

Hello Andreas.
Again, many thanks, for the quick but above all excellent help.
Best regards, Jannis.

 

Hello gents!

After 8 months, I hope it is of any interest...

Unfortunately I have to disagree:

If the displayed orders all (one is to much) belong to the bar, then it should be an officer´s clasp.

The German "Kriegsverdienst Kreuz" in gold looks a little bit to high, because it was named the "Pour le Merite" of NCO´s and soldiers. It was awarded only around 1750 times in WW1 and I can not remember any Austian award. So perhaps this is a copy and wrong here and should be a EK II or "Kriegsverdienstmedaille" (if awarded for an officer-candidate)

So, also the Austrian Merit Crosses of course have been awarded to officers. Mostly to officers away from the frontline, to military officials, doctors, priests a.s.o.

According to the German law "Verordnung zur Ausführung des Gesetzes über Titel, Orden und Ehrenzeichen" from 14. November 1935 (RGBl. I, page 1341 f), § 14 "Trageweise der Orden und Ehrenzeichen" ( range of wearable orders) it should be:

1. The german award with the EK II - ribbon

2. The first in line of the displayed Austrian awards is the "Bronzene Militaerverdienstmedaille" (Military Medal of Merit in bronce) , because awards for bravery went first and this medal only was awarded to officers,

 3. then the "Goldenes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone" (golden merit cross + crown),

4. "Silbernes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone" ( silver merit cross + crown),

5. the next should be the KTK ("Kaiser Karl Truppenkreuz", trooper cross of Karl),

6. then the HK 1934 ("Ehrenkreuz des Weltkriegs" of course with swords),

7.  then the "medal for wounded" (if...),  

8. and at last the German medal for the "occupation of Austria" (Medal 13.th march 1938).

The "Eisernes Verdienstkreuz" (iron merit cross), which in fact was very low and I have doubts, if any of them have been awarded to officers (perhaps only if he was officer candidate), and there is no ribbon for it.

The bar is due to regulations after the "Anschluss 1938", saying, that the highest German award is first, then the Austrian ones. The "Wound medal" (no longer mentioned in this law) should have been changed to the German pin-badge, this was the regular procedure, but in Austria, many times the regulations have been ignored. Even the way of arranging the single ribbons is contrary to the common manner of this period. It should be of the "bow-shape", the displayed one is very "old fashioned" like a few decades ago.

So I hope, I could give you additional informations.

Greetings from Vienna

[Ulsterman]

Austrians  awarded the wound medal usually kept their medalson their bars  -there's a tonne of photos for this.

[MonteSanto]

Good morning gents!

@ulsterman: I do not disagree with your statement and there have been some peculiar reasons. First, we Austrians always have been a " lazy sort of Germans with an attitude for individuality". Very often, you can see in this "tons of pictures" Austrians wearing both, because it looks fine and "more is sexy". Others, not so close to the new "brothers" refused the german badges and prefered the Austrian medal. There was also a slight "pressure" by the nazis, not to wear the Austrian "Kriegserinnerungsmedaille 1932" after the "Anschluss"  and many of my countrymen did so, and of course many did not wear the german "HK" to show a certain "independance". Some continued to wear the forbitten official Austrian decorations from the First Republic.

I show you one of my favourite bars, of Oberst d. Gebirgstruppe Lagger (a professional soldier), who showed his individuality on his bar, not wearing any "rememberance" of the great war, no german long service cross ( he had more than 25 years and was awarded all 4 grades), but the Austrian of the Republic or "Bundesstaat" (Federal state). Even he did not wear all of his bravery awards (Signum Laudis silver + bronce), no KTK, but the Austrian Cross for military merit III.cl (ÖMVK3; 4th in row). Even on the very rare "Orden der Württembergischen Krone", knight´s cross with spades (350 awards in WW1, app.10 to Austrian), he put a greater emphasis and due to regulation, this award should be behind the highest Austrian award (EKO III.cl).

So, especially in Austria regulations (concerning orders & decoration, uniforms aso...) always have been violated, this was a tradition until nowadays

This is not a lone example, so in this respect nothing was impossible and individuality was everything.

Greetings from Vienna

[ccj]

I’d love to see the rest of that uniform. That’s a lovely medal bar.

[MonteSanto]

I´ll post better quality, when my influenza is over.

"week" greetings, Harry

[ccj]

Thanks... nice tunic and wonderful medal bar