Am I missing something here............???

[bigjarofwasps]

Ladies/Gents,

I would very much like to hear other forum users views on the below two medals which sold yesterday on Ebay. The 1911 example, not an exuberant amount (£45) I'm sure you'll agree? But the 1887/97 example £310 is very concerning!! Am I missing something here? PC Saundery appears to have had an unremarkable career, spent in Y Division from 1887 to 1912, he never gave evidence at the Old Bailey (that I can find). So what is it about him that has demanded this premium and why didn't his 1911 medal command the same?

You will note that the listing gives another name, but has been corrected in the item details. Even if if had been the medal to PS Elsworth again nothing overly exciting about this man he served his career in Westham and have evidence at the Old Bailey twice (nothing exciting). Interestingly his medal sold recently on Ebay as well and didn't command this high price?

So Ladies & Gents, what is it I've missed or can I expect to start paying this much for 1887/97 medals from now on?

[bigjarofwasps]

This is the bidding history, there seems to have been a frenzy between 3 bidders in the last couple of seconds, I really can't understand it? 

[bigjarofwasps]

CASE CLOSED - It appears that I have missed the tenuous "Ripper" connection.

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/h-division-personnel.html?printer=true

But if I'm honest I wouldn't have paid £310 based purely on him being posted to Whitechapel in October 1888. If he'd have had some sort of documented roll in the case then fair enough. On the other hand the 1911 medal would have been a bargain, which I will kick myself for in due course!! 

On a plus note at least 1887/97 Jubilee Medals aren't suddenly demanding high prices, for that at least we can breath a sign of relief !!!

[coldstream]

The vagaries of Ebay doesn't help, still an outlandish price for such a tenuous link though.

Simon

[bigjarofwasps]

1 hour ago, coldstream said:

The vagaries of Ebay doesn't help, still an outlandish price for such a tenuous link though.

Simon

I agree Simon on both counts!! No doubt he'd have had some tales to tell about being dragged from the comforts of T Division to hunt the Ripper in Whitechapel, but these have long since been lost . At most I fear he'd only have been there a couple of months, he certainly isn't named as taking an active part in the case and if it wasn't for one entry in police orders no one would have ever known (certainly no further scope for research that I can see, unless your prepared to trawl through the police courts reports hoping to turn something up). I wonder how much PC LONG's 1887 medal for instance would fetch if that ever came on the market, I dread to think!!!!!!!

[Alan Baird]

Hello,

This is my first posting on the club forum. I also watched the auction of PC W Saundery's medals and did some basic research on him. William Henry Saundery - dark hair, grey eyes, a fresh complexion, five feet ten and a half inches tall and had a slightly deformed left hand.

PC H471 William Saundery was 1 of only 42 Police Constables that were permanently transferred to H or Whitechapel division during the infamous Jack the Ripper murders. That is 42 out of a total of 11,000-12,000 Police personnel. It should be remembered that the majority of the Police Officers serving with H division, during this specific period, have not been identified. All good stories should be evidenced and that is done by Police Order 31/10/1888. PC H471 William Saundery served with H division until the 7th of February in 1890 which was also an interesting period because you have various murder scares where it was feared JTR had returned.

8/2/1890 joined A Whitehall division. 26/8/1890 joined E or Holborn division. 27/12/1893 joined Y Highgate division. Retired from the Met. and Y division on the 4/3/1912 and all evidenced by his Met. Police pension records etc.

Saundery is an unusual surname and there is also a good deal of information on his family life.

PC H471 William Saundery's story and medals are extremely interesting and have the potential for researching in many ways. In many years of collecting I have never seen any of these particular Police Constables medals come onto the market and I suspect it will be many years again before we see a similar event. 

One last thought - this particular sale was accidentally done very badly, the listing title of the auction gave the wrong Police officers details and this error may have even resulted in many collectors missing the importance of these medals and also the start of the Summer holidays is never a good time to sell. The market value is what collectors and dealers are willing to pay and whenever you have a good story, then you are likely to be able to command a good price. Well that is my opinion and I thought I would share it with you all.  

 

 

 

 

[bigjarofwasps]

1 hour ago, Alan Baird said:

Hello,

This is my first posting on the club forum. I also watched the auction of PC W Saundery's medals and did some basic research on him. William Henry Saundery - dark hair, grey eyes, a fresh complexion, five feet ten and a half inches tall and had a slightly deformed left hand.

PC H471 William Saundery was 1 of only 42 Police Constables that were permanently transferred to H or Whitechapel division during the infamous Jack the Ripper murders. That is 42 out of a total of 11,000-12,000 Police personnel. It should be remembered that the majority of the Police Officers serving with H division, during this specific period, have not been identified. All good stories should be evidenced and that is done by Police Order 31/10/1888. PC H471 William Saundery served with H division until the 7th of February in 1890 which was also an interesting period because you have various murder scares where it was feared JTR had returned.

8/2/1890 joined A Whitehall division. 26/8/1890 joined E or Holborn division. 27/12/1893 joined Y Highgate division. Retired from the Met. and Y division on the 4/3/1912 and all evidenced by his Met. Police pension records etc.

Saundery is an unusual surname and there is also a good deal of information on his family life.

PC H471 William Saundery's story and medals are extremely interesting and have the potential for researching in many ways. In many years of collecting I have never seen any of these particular Police Constables medals come onto the market and I suspect it will be many years again before we see a similar event. 

One last thought - this particular sale was accidentally done very badly, the listing title of the auction gave the wrong Police officers details and this error may have even resulted in many collectors missing the importance of these medals and also the start of the Summer holidays is never a good time to sell. The market value is what collectors and dealers are willing to pay and whenever you have a good story, then you are likely to be able to command a good price. Well that is my opinion and I thought I would share it with you all.  

 

 

 

 

Hi Alan,

Welcome to the forum, VERY enligtening first thread!!! 

A classic example of why medals don't need to be named to H Division to have a H Division connection. I have several in my collection that fall into this catagory, but unfortunatley for me, there were all too early it have a "Ripper" connection, tenuous as that might have been. The nearest I've got is a J Division chap, he joined just before Jack and was st Bethnal Green Station most of his career, certainly during and long after Jack. 
It should be noted that the 42 officers were deployed for plain clothes duties, there were loads (several hundred I understand) that where posted there for uniform patrols, during the "Ripper" period. Sadly these are not as well documented, but if you happened across one documented in police orders, you'd have struck gold, I would think.
What I always find interesting is the fact that so many officers H Division or otherwise were in Whitechapel at the time, yet so few of them have a documented "Ripper" connection. Although I'm sure they all have a tale to tell. 
 

Re the auction itself, I agree. This coupled with the fact that the seller clearly didn't know what he had. The most expensive H Division medal I've seen sell was a 1887 example, that went for £500 on Ebay, again no "Ripper" connection at all other than he was in H Division at the right time. MADNESS in my opinion. I'd liken it to any 1st July 1916 medal, they always demand a high premium to, I remember seeing one once on a dealers list, with a silly price. On closer examination, the chaps Regiment wasn't even involved in the Somme attack, he'd just been killed on the 1st of July, on a completely different part of the line, caveat emptor!!!!

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by bigjarofwasps

[Alan Baird]

Hi,

I totally agree with you that during the height of the JTR murders, there would have probably been hundreds of suspects taken to the Police Stations each week. The majority of these would have been cleared and released quite quickly but you would think that there would be a mass of information relating to these incidents and the Police Officers involved but that is not the case.

Ebay has its advantages but it also has many disadvantages, prices go from good to outrageous. Often there are better deals to be had by going directly to dealers shops and auctions etc.

H or Whitechapel division medals relating to 1888 are extremely difficult to find but it can also be rewarding collecting from another famous period in H or Whitechapel division history. For example the ''Siege of Sidney Street in 1911.'' That whole period of the Tottingham Outrage and Sidney Street shows great courage by the officers that dealt with the incidents. There is greater scope in finding interesting items, as these are less well known incidents nowadays.

Alan.     

 

[bigjarofwasps]

23 hours ago, Alan Baird said:

Hi,

I totally agree with you that during the height of the JTR murders, there would have probably been hundreds of suspects taken to the Police Stations each week. The majority of these would have been cleared and released quite quickly but you would think that there would be a mass of information relating to these incidents and the Police Officers involved but that is not the case.

Ebay has its advantages but it also has many disadvantages, prices go from good to outrageous. Often there are better deals to be had by going directly to dealers shops and auctions etc.

H or Whitechapel division medals relating to 1888 are extremely difficult to find but it can also be rewarding collecting from another famous period in H or Whitechapel division history. For example the ''Siege of Sidney Street in 1911.'' That whole period of the Tottingham Outrage and Sidney Street shows great courage by the officers that dealt with the incidents. There is greater scope in finding interesting items, as these are less well known incidents nowadays.

Alan.     

 

Alan,

I couldn't agree more. Have PM'd you.

Regards, Gordon.

 

[bigjarofwasps]

Ok Ladies and Gents, whose going to make me kick myself with this one? 

What have I missed here? According to my records he only served from 1896 to 1898 and I can find no record of him giving evidence at the Old Bailey. 

£310 seems awefully expensive to me, purely because he served in H Division or am I out of the times?

 

[Alan Baird]

Hi,

I totally agree with you, I was amazed at the price it went for and it might be very difficult to research since he only served two years and his service is right between the two England Census dates ie 1891 and 1901. He was hardly in the door and then he was out again. Don't really understand that one? 

[bigjarofwasps]

11 hours ago, Alan Baird said:

Hi,

I totally agree with you, I was amazed at the price it went for and it might be very difficult to research since he only served two years and his service is right between the two England Census dates ie 1891 and 1901. He was hardly in the door and then he was out again. Don't really understand that one? 

Phew, glad you agree Alan. Thought I’d missed something glaring with this one!!!

I have  a couple of 1897 trios to H Division in my collection, not that I’m planning on selling them, but will be interesting to see what they’d go for. Nowhere near that nothing my luck ???

Gordon. 

[bigjarofwasps]

This group has been listed a couple of times now with no takers. Interesting as there was a time when H Division commanded a feeding  frenzy no matter what? Are people now becoming wise that H doesn’t necessarily equal Jack? 

Edited October 13, 2019 by bigjarofwasps

[Alan Baird]

Hello G,

I noticed this group as well....and I suspect there may be a couple of reasons for it not selling just now.

[a] The seller has, to their credit, added an ''important notice'' in the descriptive text stating that this individual was not in the Metropolitan Police during the Jack the Ripper murders in 1888.

I can find the group under ''Metropolitan Police medals'' but it does not seem to appear under ''Police medals.''

[c] It does appear to be quite expensive but that is just my opinion.

[d] There does not appear to be much on this individual ie Old Bailey trial records etc.

[e] and I think you may be right...the market seems to be a bit quiet at times

 

 

Edited October 13, 2019 by Alan Baird

[bigjarofwasps]

Saw this on EBay, was shocked at the price that a 16 page booklet on the history of the Metropolitan Police sold for, or am I missing something? 

[paul wood]

.....A fool and his money....otherwise Ebay wouldn't exist.

Paul

[bigjarofwasps]

13 hours ago, paul wood said:

.....A fool and his money....otherwise Ebay wouldn't exist.

Paul

?

..... wait there’s more!!!

[paul wood]

Somewhat better value than the last. Although i could get a bottle of gin with the book and the postage which I supect would provide me with greater pleasure.

Paul

[bigjarofwasps]

4 minutes ago, paul wood said:

Somewhat better value than the last. Although i could get a bottle of gin with the book and the postage which I supect would provide me with greater pleasure.

Paul

 

I bought the South and South East one, I'll let you know...................?

[paul wood]

Well i hope the book is of some substance as a lot of these local police histories are little better than small museum guidebooks which usually provide little new knowledge

P

[bigjarofwasps]

More EBay madness.....