EK & AH Medal bar. Musketier Kessler. Inf Reg 400.

[Farkas]

Hi Gents

My new bar... 

Austro Hungarian is my first love so I couldn't resist this.

possibly.... this is glaringly wrong to you more knowledgeable Gents.

Would an MM cross be awarded without lower level bravery awards first?

don't spare my feelings if you have doubts - I genuinely would rather hear your thoughts Gents.

i won't lie... i paid out 250 plus post for this. Think it was a bit cheap? And I didn't know enough about it either, not enough to justify getting it - but - it didn't stop me, and, with mixed emotions I did...

You Gents know the feeling??

that "gulp" feeling...??

---////------/--

So when it turned up I wanted to know :

was EK maker marked? Looked too crisp and new.

was the Military Merit Cross genuine ?

was the bar good quality ? 

Was the bar original?

and if so had the original medals been swapped out?

And so on

and so on !!

and then so on!

-------

Some pics first then my thoughts on it....

 

---/----/-//-----

to me, the quality of the medal mounting/bar is top notch. ( hope not too good?)  it is so rigid still. The folds do not move. It's thick, padded, uv negative and just a few stitches snapped to rear.

I can't get to the ring of the MM cross without stressing the ribbon and cannot see how the award isn't original to the bar.

Fellow Gent cimbineus has told me that at first glance this MM Cross looks good, a Friedrich Rothe made example.

I had to (had to!) check the EK ring. It was tricky to prise the ribbon of the Iron Cross from the ring. I was relieved to see a mark (800?) (silver) I  haven't poked any further yet... The ring is blackened, in contrast to the medal which now appears to have been cleaned, rather than new. The ring is small though - not the size I have on others or personally seen before..  that worries me slightly - should it? I hope to hear its because it's on a later bar and not period ww1 issue!? Or other similarly reassuring reason!.

So Gents

after my longest worded post ever (usually 3 words) I hope you like....

tony

 

*************

Musketier Kessler

Inf Regt 400

2 komp

*************

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Farkas
Pics

[Brunswick]

Hi Tony

The assemblers label and method/quality of mounting look good to me - overall a nice looking group and yes, I think you got a good buy. Well done.

Stuart

[dedehansen]

Hi Tony,

this medal bar is not a bar from a Musketier, the former

owner must as least have been second lieutenant.

Kind regards
Andreas

[scottplen]

I missed the end of the auction ! Looks like a nice bar ! I agree an officer bar ! The name label does not match !

[Ulsterman]

The MM was an officers' only award was it not? However, I thought Feldwebel-Lts, Faehrichs and Officer Stelvtr. ranks could also receive it.  Sedalzek was in business well into the 1970s and it looks like an original bar.  I think you did ok. 

[Farkas]

Hi Gents

thanks for your replies. Information provided much appreciated.

i feel even better now!

 

Scottplen - I was lucky the auction finished mid afternoon. The price didn't go up at all. Was expecting some last moment bidding but guess the time was the reason....

Thanks again all...

tony

 

 

7 hours ago, Brunswick said:

Hi Tony

The assemblers label and method/quality of mounting look good to me - overall a nice looking group and yes, I think you got a good buy. Well done.

Stuart

 

6 hours ago, dedehansen said:

Hi Tony,

this medal bar is not a bar from a Musketier, the former

owner must as least have been second lieutenant.

Kind regards
Andreas

 

2 hours ago, scottplen said:

I missed the end of the auction ! Looks like a nice bar ! I agree an officer bar ! The name label does not match !

 

1 hour ago, Ulsterman said:

The MM was an officers' only award was it not? However, I thought Feldwebel-Lts, Faehrichs and Officer Stelvtr. ranks could also receive it.  Sedalzek was in business well into the 1970s and it looks like an original bar.  I think you did ok. 

 

[Dave Danner]

On 10/25/2017 at 12:20, Ulsterman said:

The MM was an officers' only award was it not? However, I thought Feldwebel-Lts, Faehrichs and Officer Stelvtr. ranks could also receive it.   

Not to my knowledge.  These ranks received either the Tapferkeitsmedaille or the Verdienstkreuz am Bande der Tapferkeitsmedaille.  I don't have them at hand, but I believe the Militärverdienstkreuz statutes specify "wirkliche Offiziere". I could be wrong, though.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Dave Danner

[Farkas]

Hi Gents...

i hoped that it was a good MM but it looked swapped in. it was the one I really wanted though and it is good. The name is wrong but not that disappointed...

I thought  it was probably  replacing a bronze or similar, for looks, especially as it stated it was a musketiers bar it seemed wrong.

If it belonged to an Officer it would make sense of that 

if 'virkliche'! (Real/actual??) is the rule ?

**just googled werklichte then virkliche** - 

Are the regulations/ranks discussed relating to German getting foreign awards or AH giving or both. ??

I'm not familiar I'm sorry. 

---/

Wondering if I could get away with calling it a possible AH officer bar?

Would an Austrian have worn their German awards first if settled in Germany? Or by law even?

Although no Karl Kreuz medal....

********

thanks as always Gents

tony

 

Ps my old favourite

 

[Christian1962]

Some remarks:

Militärverdienstkreuz was just for officers.

It must be a german officers bar. An austrian officer serving with fighting troops in WW1 would have owened a Militärverdienstmedaille Silber (in most cases) and Bronze in addition. And a Karl-Truppenkreuz. As you can see on the attached pic. Thats a very common type of bar with exeption of the "Kriegsmedaille 1873" which was quite rare in WW1.

Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Klasse was the lowest decoration which was awarded to foreign officers in WW1. They did not receive any Militärverdienstmedaille or Karl-Truppenkreuz.

Kindest

Christian

 

[Farkas]

15 hours ago, Christian1962 said:

Some remarks:

Militärverdienstkreuz was just for officers.

It must be a german officers bar. An austrian officer serving with fighting troops in WW1 would have owened a Militärverdienstmedaille Silber (in most cases) and Bronze in addition. And a Karl-Truppenkreuz. As you can see on the attached pic. Thats a very common type of bar with exeption of the "Kriegsmedaille 1873" which was quite rare in WW1.

Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Klasse was the lowest decoration which was awarded to foreign officers in WW1. They did not receive any Militärverdienstmedaille or Karl-Truppenkreuz.

Kindest

Christian

 

Thanks Christian 

I'm happy with that.

----

on your bar the German 'Hindenburg' precedes the Hungarian at the end.

But not german obviousy (?) 

Were there rules on German awards having precedence?

i don't think my Grandfathet collected his 'Hindenburg'. If he had, would it have been in the middle preceding his Austrian and Hungarian 'campaign' medals and after a Karl Kreuz and tapfer' ?'

tony

 

[Christian1962]

9 hours ago, Farkas said:

Thanks Christian 

I'm happy with that.

----

on your bar the German 'Hindenburg' precedes the Hungarian at the end.

But not german obviousy (?) 

Were there rules on German awards having precedence?

i don't think my Grandfathet collected his 'Hindenburg'. If he had, would it have been in the middle preceding his Austrian and Hungarian 'campaign' medals and after a Karl Kreuz and tapfer' ?'

tony

 

Yep, your are right. The precedence was MVK, MVM, TKM, KTK, Hindenburg, Austrian commemorative medals (1914 - 1918, 1912-13), hungarian war medal, bulgarian war medal.

Look at another example....

Kindest

Christian

 

[Farkas]

Thanks Christian

..... and fine examples!

cheers

tony

7 hours ago, Christian1962 said:

Yep, your are right. The precedence was MVK, MVM, TKM, KTK, Hindenburg, Austrian commemorative medals (1914 - 1918, 1912-13), hungarian war medal, bulgarian war medal.

Look at another example....

Kindest

Christian

 

 

[Christian1962]

And here a real Beauty which I traded some years ago...

Kindest

Christian

[Ulsterman]

As an aside-very few of the residents of Ostmark applied for and received an HK. The medal was authorized for Ostmarkers only in 1939 and frozen in early 1940. 

[Farkas]

Thanks Ulsterman

i wasn't aware it was such a small timespan. Good to know.

My family left Vienna in 1938 so I think that confirms he didn't collect his.

cheers

tony

17 hours ago, Ulsterman said:

As an aside-very few of the residents of Ostmark applied for and received an HK. The medal was authorized for Ostmarkers only in 1939 and frozen in early 1940. 

 

[Dave Danner]

On 10/28/2017 at 02:31, Christian1962 said:

Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Klasse was the lowest decoration which was awarded to foreign officers in WW1. They did not receive any Militärverdienstmedaille or Karl-Truppenkreuz.

Kindest

Christian

A few minor corrections.  The MVK was the lowest decoration awarded to officers as officers. However, a number of German officers who were commissioned during the war received lower decorations such as the Tapferkeitsmedaille and the Verdienstkreuz. In some cases, these were awarded when they were already officers, but may have been retroactive to when they were enlisted.

For example, Leutnant der Reserve Ernst Littmann of the 3.Garde-Regiment zu Fuß received the Eiserne Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone am Bande der Tapferkeitsmedaille on 18.12.1917.  Since he had been a Leutnant der Reserve since 18.6.1915 and the Verdienstkreuz was an enlisted award, it seems likely the award was retroactive to when he was an Unteroffizier/Vizefeldwebel in the Gorlice–Tarnów Offensive.

Also, at least some Germans did in fact receive the Karl-Truppenkreuz. In most cases, it appears these were Germans attached to Austro-Hungarian units.  Lt.d.R. Littmann, in fact, was one of these recipients. His personnel file does not mention an attachment to an A-H formation, but perhaps the regimental history of the 3.GRzF mentions detachments.

[Ulsterman]

On 28/10/2017 at 02:31, Christian1962 said:

Some remarks:

Militärverdienstkreuz was just for officers.

It must be a german officers bar. An austrian officer serving with fighting troops in WW1 would have owened a Militärverdienstmedaille Silber (in most cases) and Bronze in addition. And a Karl-Truppenkreuz. As you can see on the attached pic. Thats a very common type of bar with exeption of the "Kriegsmedaille 1873" which was quite rare in WW1.

Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Klasse was the lowest decoration which was awarded to foreign officers in WW1. They did not receive any Militärverdienstmedaille or Karl-Truppenkreuz.

Kindest

Christian

 

note that The Austrian war veterans’ Assn. AND the retired officers’ Assn. both took it upon themselves to award the war medal AFTER the war fir a small payment. There are lots of documents around for this post war award.