Bavarian General Spiked Helmet for your opinions

[Claudio]

Dear forumites,I saw this beautiful piece of Bavarian headgear for Generals. I have bit of concerns about the emblem of this helmet, because it's like a mix of a earlier style of emblem (with laurel leaves beneath the lions) and the late helmet model with the enamelled Bavarian coat of arms in the middle.

I'd like to share the pictures with you and thank you very much in advance for your kind comments.

Best regards,

C

[Bayern]

Nice piece ! Jan K Kube In his book Militaria , shows a helmet with enamelled coat of arms and says that it was a pattern for Medical Generals and  Generaladjutanten . 

[Claudio]

Hi! Thanks for your input... I know that book of Jan K Kube (see below picture). From the very small picture however I don't see the laurel oakleaves...

BR

C

Some more pictures from a very interesting German book about "Offiziershelme"...

C

Edited March 18, 2020 by Claudio

[Claudio]

I found this on Kube's auction catalogue... but the "Beschläge" the colour of the emblem, of the spike and chin scale is Golden not Silver, though.
 

Found also this one on Ratibons'... The description is quite generic not specific and the are no laurels leaves under the lions.

No price neither.

 

 

I also found this one on Hermann Historica website with the same emblem (see laurel leaves), although it is described as a copy, and you can see it buy the quality of the helmet outside and inside and the brand new box for storing it.

Auction house's description:

 

Description

Black leather: body, front visor with green underlay and rear visor with red underlay, silver officer Bavarian Lions with centre enamel emblem on front plate attached with two screw posts with nut fasteners; silver: fluted spike, cross base, star studs, rear spline and front square visor trim; silver rounded scale chinstraps attached with officer rosettes; officer national and Bavarian cockards; white silk lining with white leather sweat band; with tall carrying case. Museum Quality Copy.

Zustand: I -

[Bayern]

Nice Repro ! regarding the helmets ,Bavarian Generals weared silver buttons ,braids , helmet metalic pieces, but Medical Generals not . they weared gold ones . the enamelled coat of arms was common to both types .

[GdC26]

Ciao Claudio,

There are several at Weitze: 

https://www.weitze.net/militaria/29/Bayern_Pickelhaube_fuer_Generale_nbsp__365929.html

and

https://www.weitze.net/militaria/53/Bayern_Pickelhaube_fuer_Generale__223253.html

neither of them with laurel leaves.

 

One of them shows you what the back of the plate should look like. Did you remove and check out yours (I'm always hesitant to do so, but it is important to tell real from fake these days)? And did you check fro possible "Doppellöcher" in the helmet's body, indicating it may have had a different plate at some point in time? Moreover, but is there any indication that the liner may have been replaced? Hard to judge from the pics, but its condition does not seem to match the condition of the helmet.

 

Time permitting I'll go down to my library and dig out an excellent book I have on Bavarian spiked helmets. I'll let you know what I find. In the meantime, the only helmet with laurel leaves I found on Helmut's site is this cavalry/field artillery helmet: https://www.weitze.net/militaria/95/Bayern_Pickelhaube_fuer_einen_Reserve_Offizier_in_den_Chevaulegers_Regimentern_1_3_5_und_7_oder_der_bayerischen_Feld_Artillerie_Regimenter__361495.html

But GM Martin Zöllner's M 1902 helmet I bought at Kube many moons ago does have laurel leaves. Perhaps yours is a M 1902 (basically with a standard infantry plate, but of higher quality, if memory serves) that the general upgraded on the introduction of the enameled plate in 1913: but it would require an inspection of the plate etc. to confirm that.

Is it named anywhere? Zöllner's helmet has his name written in pencil on the inner body of the helmet, underneath the liner.

Bayern and you are right about the color of the Beschläge: silver for generals, gold for medical generals and Generaladjutanten. 

Kind regards,

 Sandro

[Claudio]

Ciao Sandro,

Thanks for your detailed reply. Yes, I saw the Pickelhauben on the notorious German dealer. I don't like them because of their conditions and also the first (the most expensive one, Eur 8'500.-!!!) has 3 holes but 4 prongs that, in my opinion, only 2 of them  (the lateral ones on the left and right) are used to fix the emblem. Both W's helmets have a different frontal emblem then the one showed by me laurels leaves under the lions. I like the second W's helmet better but the conditions are a bit "salty", the leather helmet on top a bit deformed, as well the rear visor and the surface is quite heavily cracked.

This helmet is being offered by an auction house. I'll PM you the details. Therefore I could ask them to remove the emblem, but I seriously doubt that they would dare to do it. But of course I learned that in doing so you could really tell about "Doppellöcher", some restorations to the emblem (new prongs to the rear of emblem), the kind of prongs (if original or new ones) and least but not last if there are holes which have been "closed" and some new ones being made lately. 

Practically a mine field...  There some very good put together helmets or "improved" ones with rarer emblems (also original some copies) on the marked.

Thank you again, Sandro, for your interesting comments, though.

Cordially

Claudio

[GdC26]

Pleasure, Claudio. As you may have seen, I've meanwhile responded to your PM by e-mail, sending you a scan of two pages from the book I referenced. It is clear from the description of the relevant regulations given there that the plate should not have laurel leaves. 

 

I've also checked the pictures in my collection, and have not found any wartime or postwar "old boys gathering" pics of a helmet with laurel leaves being worn (and I've seen some oddities at post war gatherings orf retired generals). So I think the helmet at hand requires explanation.

 

Hope this is of assistance.

Kind regards, 

Sandro

[Claudio]

Thanks for all Sandro! You quite gave me more valuable inputs... let see if they are ready to show some detailed pictures of the helmet without the frontal emblem, in order to see the holes and the frontal emblem on the reverse.

Cheers,

Claudio

Edited March 19, 2020 by Claudio

[GdC26]

My pleasure Claudio, I hope things work out either way. 

Kind regards,

 Sandro

[Bayern]

Gentlemen , Der Kammerbulle ,a German  supplier of good quality repros offers a Bavarian general helmet plate without leaves and says that is the model used from february 1914 

[GdC26]

Thanks Bayern, but I think that date is wrong. This is what I shared privately with Claudio, from a book on Bavarian spiked helmets issued by or based on the collection of the Bayerische armeemuseum in Ingolstadt.

 

It puts the introduction at 18 April 1913 (with a 20 February 1914 extension to generals as honorary regimental commanders ("Regimentsinhaber") and Generäle a la Suite) and clearly mentions the absence of lauerelleaves as a feature of the new plate (which goes directly to Claudio's original question, and which is why I sent it to him).

Kind regards,

 Sandro

Edited March 20, 2020 by GdC26

[Claudio]

Dear Sandro, dear forumites,

Here's a picture of the reverse of the emblem... it looks quite good IMHO.

Claudio