Konteradmiral Otto Philipp - Ribbon bar

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

I found this ribbon bar attributed to Konteradmiral Otto Philipp on Weitze.

Can anyone confirm it is indeed his ribbon bar? Some awards fit, but this looks to be a post-WW1 bar.

Here are my guesses:

- Eisernes Kreuz (1914) 2. Klasse

- Königlich Preußischer Roter Adler-Orden 4. Klasse mit der Krone (the Crown is missing)

- ???

- ???

- ???

- China-Denkmünze in Bronze

- Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer (the Swords are missing)

- Königlich Preußische Kaiser Wilhelm-Centenarmedaille 1897

Could the 3rd ribbon be the Prussian Order of the Crown 2nd Class with Swords? He had the Order of the Crown 2nd Class without Swords before WW1 (confirmed by the Rangliste).

Here is his list of awards I have from the Rangliste and Excel Gesamtliste:

-Königlich Preußischer Roter Adler-Orden 2. Klasse mit Eichenlaub und Schwertern (03. 05. 1917)
-Königlich Preußischer Kronen-Orden 2. Klasse (21. 01. 1912)
-Eisernes Kreuz (1914) 1. Klasse
-Eisernes Kreuz (1914) 2. Klasse
-Königlich Preußische Kaiser Wilhelm-Centenarmedaille 1897
-China-Denkmünze in Bronze mit Spange „Taku“
-Königlich Preußischer Roter Adler-Orden 3. Klasse mit der Schleife
-Königlich Preußischer Roter Adler-Orden 4. Klasse mit der Krone
-Königlich Preußischer Kronen-Orden 4. Klasse
-Königlich Preußisches Dienstauszeichnungskreuz
-Kommandeurkreuz 2. Klasse des Königlich Dänischen Dannebrog-Ordens
-Kommandeurkreuz des Königlich Griechischen Erlöserordens
-Kommandeur des Königlich Großbritannischen Victoria-Ordens
-Kommandeurkreuz des Königlich Niederländischen Ordens von Oranien-Nassau
-k.u.k. Österreichischer Orden der Eisernen Krone 2. Klasse
-Kaiserlich Russischer St. Annenorden 2. Klasse
-Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer

Thanks!

[GdC26]

Komtur,

Maybe it's me, but I don't see a match between the list of Phillip's awards in your post and the ribbon bar shown. 4 seems to be Saxony, St Heinrich knight, 5 looks like Württemberg, Friedrichsorden knight 2nd class with swords. i see no evidence 2 ever had a crown or Schleife. 3 is a Kriegsorden but which is unclear to me, and in any event it strikes me 3 should precede 2. And where is the DAK?

I could not find the bar on Helmut's site - did he explain the attribution in his original posting?

Kind regards, 

Sandro

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

Hello Sandro, I am not Komtur.

Here is a screenshot from the Weitze website about this ribbon bar.

Thanks for the comment. I agree this bar doesn't seem to belong to Otto Philipp. The award list comes from the 1914 Rangliste. Philipp was a z.D. officer during WW1 and he is not listed in the 1916 and 1918 Rangliste. Is it possible the Saxony, St Heinrich knight and Friedrichsorden knight 2nd class with swords were awarded during wartime?

[GdC26]

Sorry for the mixup, Kriegsmarine Admiral. Looking at the bar again, I'm not even sure the St Heinrich is a St. Heinrich knights cross, which shouldn't have the swords. Frierdichsorden knight second class strikes me as too low an award for a Kapitän zur See, as I see from the screenshot he was from 1904 up to his appointment to Konteradmiral in 1916. So I might be wrong, but I just don't see it.

Kind regards, 

Sandro

[laurentius]

I think the ribbon which is said to be a St. Henry is actually a BZL

[GdC26]

11 hours ago, laurentius said:

I think the ribbon which is said to be a St. Henry is actually a BZL

That is possible, but still not a match for Otto Philipp I think.

[laurentius]

12 hours ago, GdC26 said:

That is possible, but still not a match for Otto Philipp I think.

I don't think this ribbonbar was owned by Phillip at all, if we identify the awards correctly we might be able to find the owner though, the combination (atleast to me) seems unique enough.

The problem however is the decorations and the grades, is the third ribbon a KOx or a RAOx? Are the BZL and the WF second or first class? Those are the questions we need to answer before we can even start looking throught the rolls.

[Luke J]

Hello! This is my first post on here so excuse me if I don't do this right.

 

 I actually purchased this ribbon bar from them with the hopes of it being ID'd to him. when I googled his name, nothing shows up on him. I can take pictures of the paperwork that came with the set if anyone would like to see and I can take more pictures of the ribbon bar its self if you guys would like. 

Best regards 

Luke. 

[laurentius]

That would be most appreciated Luke, welcome to the forum

[Luke J]

Thank you! 

 

I will post the pictures below when I get home!

[GdC26]

6 hours ago, laurentius said:

I don't think this ribbonbar was owned by Phillip at all, if we identify the awards correctly we might be able to find the owner though, the combination (atleast to me) seems unique enough.

The problem however is the decorations and the grades, is the third ribbon a KOx or a RAOx? Are the BZL and the WF second or first class? Those are the questions we need to answer before we can even start looking throught the rolls.

I doubt you'll find him, because the ribbon bar looks problematic to me, as noted above - KOx or RAOx after a peacetime RAO? And even we look past the sequence issue, when would our man have earned the KOx or RAOx? Sure, our man had China service, but no other colonial service that would explain a RAO4X or KO4x. And no DAK, even though he served in 1897 and apparently in WWI? 

If real, it would take the skills and memory of the late Rick Research, the great inspirer of this forum,  to trace him, I think.

1 hour ago, Napalm_Jelly96 said:

Thank you! 

 

I will post the pictures below when I get home!

That will be interesting.

[laurentius]

54 minutes ago, GdC26 said:

I doubt you'll find him, because the ribbon bar looks problematic to me, as noted above - KOx or RAOx after a peacetime RAO? And even we look past the sequence issue, when would our man have earned the KOx or RAOx? Sure, our man had China service, but no other colonial service that would explain a RAO4X or KO4x. And no DAK, even though he served in 1897 and apparently in WWI? 

But we haven't yet looked at the other option, what if this RAO isn't an RAO at all but rather a HT? I think the white is more like a discoloured blue. This would however not explain the position of the RAOx/KOx and the lack of swords on the Hindenburgcross. Once we have better pictures it will be easier to cast judgement.

[GdC26]

1 hour ago, laurentius said:

But we haven't yet looked at the other option, what if this RAO isn't an RAO at all but rather a HT? I think the white is more like a discoloured blue. This would however not explain the position of the RAOx/KOx and the lack of swords on the Hindenburgcross. Once we have better pictures it will be easier to cast judgement.

I see white, not a discoloured blue, but I'm sure Luke can tell us one way or the other. I also see Helmut described the RAO ribbon as ..... a RAO ribbon and the St. Heinrich ribbon as just that, not as a  discoloured BZL ribbon.

If ribbon nr. 2  is a HT, the placement of that ribbon after the EK II but before another prussian award on war ribbon (which Helmut identifies as a HoH3X, but the device seems wrong for that) would be even weirder. And then there is still the unexplained absence of a DAK. 

Sorry, but the bar gives me no warm fuzzy feelings.

Edited September 15, 2020 by GdC26

[Luke J]

Here are both of the pieces of paper that came with the bar. Hopefully this helps a little.  If you guys would like closes ups of the bar its self, I will be more than happy to take pictures and post them. 

[Luke J]

 Here is another picture of it. I know its not as good and clear as Helmut's photo. 

Here's the back side for you guys. 

And here are some up close shots divided. Maybe that will be more helpful. 

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

2 hours ago, Napalm_Jelly96 said:

Here are both of the pieces of paper that came with the bar. Hopefully this helps a little.

These two pieces of paper come from the book "Deutschlands Admirale 1849-1945, Band 3" by Hans Hildebrand and Ernest Henriot. They don't reveal anything about his decorations.

[laurentius]

2 hours ago, Napalm_Jelly96 said:

I know its not as good and clear as Helmut's photo. 

Your pictures are actually better than those of Helmut. The second ribbon is a RAO, but my thought was correct, the fourth decoration is a BZL and not a Saxon st. Henry.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this bar is not genuine. The frontside gave us some doubts which were sadly confirmed by pictures of the backside. This style of ribbonbar was common during the third reich, consisting of a metal backplate onto which pieces of ribbon were fixed by small clips, which you can see at an interval on the backside of your ribbonbar. Given the fact that all of these seem to have different aging and different materials, together with the fact we have several types of devices on the front and the nonsensical combination I would have to conclude this piece not to be genuine. I would invite other collectors to give their opinions.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Luke J]

I appreciate the feed back on this.  Its really a bummer though as I was thinking it was attributed to Otto.  I will defiantly be asking for advice in the future before buying another named bar. I'm a young collector and when I saw that it was "attributed" to him I thought I better jump on it. I bought a 13er  from them before this one and it turned out it was not ID'd to the guy either. 

Thank you very much! 

[GdC26]

10 hours ago, laurentius said:

Your pictures are actually better than those of Helmut. The second ribbon is a RAO, but my thought was correct, the fourth decoration is a BZL and not a Saxon st. Henry.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this bar is not genuine. The frontside gave us some doubts which were sadly confirmed by pictures of the backside. This style of ribbonbar was common during the third reich, consisting of a metal backplate onto which pieces of ribbon were fixed by small clips, which you can see at an interval on the backside of your ribbonbar. Given the fact that all of these seem to have different aging and different materials, together with the fact we have several types of devices on the front and the nonsensical combination I would have to conclude this piece not to be genuine. I would invite other collectors to give their opinions.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Its not a BZL but a St. Heinrich, but that doesn't change what I said before, that the bar is probably problematic (as the odd combination, the sequence and the absence of a DAK already suggested).

[laurentius]

14 hours ago, Napalm_Jelly96 said:

 

 

32 minutes ago, GdC26 said:

ts not a BZL but a St. Heinrich

The yellow on the fourth ribbon is too bright to be a St. Henry, not to mention the colour is discoloured green, not discoloured blue

This is the ribbon of the St. Henry and the BZL respectively. If we forget for a moment that a Saxon St. Henry wouldn't have swords there would still be the case of the yellow/orange which is way to bright and the shade of the green that has been discoloured by time.

 

11 hours ago, Napalm_Jelly96 said:

I appreciate the feed back on this.

Although the ribbonbar is not original, I wouldn't throw it out yet, as it is made up of genuine parts.

[GdC26]

7 hours ago, laurentius said:

The yellow on the fourth ribbon is too bright to be a St. Henry, not to mention the colour is discoloured green, not discoloured blue

This is the ribbon of the St. Henry and the BZL respectively. If we forget for a moment that a Saxon St. Henry wouldn't have swords there would still be the case of the yellow/orange which is way to bright and the shade of the green that has been discoloured by time.

 

Although the ribbonbar is not original, I wouldn't throw it out yet, as it is made up of genuine parts.

Laurentius, I know both ribbons, and as far as I'm concerned, this is the St. Henry (and so, apparently, did Helmut, who handled the bar, unlike you and me) - so no need to show them, let's simply agree to disagree. All the more so since in this case, the final determination is quite irrelevant, since we both seem to agree the bar has issues.

[Craig]

Gentlemen,

                  If you wish to pass onto each other political comic strips please find an appropriate forum. I'm sure there are plenty out there on the internet. This post is now locked.