Help with identifying a Chinese medal

[Obal7]

I recently picked up this Chinese medal and have no idea what it is. I assume it is a military medal and was told it was from the Korean War era. 
any help with identification and translation would be greatly appreciated. 
 

[JapanX]

Modern chinese fake.

[Obal7]

Thanks!  I know nothing about Chinese medals. 

[1812 Overture]

I hope you don't spend much. . This kind of fakes usually only sell for 1 RMB in China

The meaning of the back: "Liang Huasheng", the Minister of Education of the Kuomintang presented
Central South Cadre Training Group

[JASONW]

Cheap rubbish.. Sorry about my wording. I pound you can get 10. 

[v.Perlet]

These pin-on-medals in 99.999% of all cases are not military awards but party, commemorative and ceremonial distinctions , issued by the Kuomintang government and that of the PRC, in the millions. Due to the price, average about 20c per piece, I can hardly imagine that someone would be interested in faking them. 

That some foreigners might even pay 2-5$ a piece at those flee-markets is known to the sellers. However the number of those tourists is totally negligible towards a business view of producing fakes, since there are millions and millions of originals floating around.

 

Anyhow, as the star shows it is from the Kuomintang era, (ended 1949)  as such certainly not from the Korea war era. The translation from "1812 overture" is correct.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[JapanX]

17 hours ago, v.Perlet said:

These pin-on-medals in 99.999% of all cases are not military awards but party, commemorative and ceremonial distinctions , issued by the Kuomintang government and that of the PRC, in the millions. Due to the price, average about 20c per piece, I can hardly imagine that someone would be interested in faking them. 

 

Such "pin-on-medals" in 100% of all cases are fakes. They worth nothing.  

 

Kuomintang government never used this type of suspension for its awards. 

 

This is typical suspension device for the early awards of the People's Republic of China. But original suspensions (and medals with such suspension) look different.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by JapanX

[v.Perlet]

Hello JapanX,

 

don't quite agree with you. Since there are millions of these worthless commemorative medals around i wouldn't see the sense in starting to fake them.

I am sure that the Kuomintang medallion is an original - even though more or less worthless.

You can see that the ring doesn't match so someone took these billions of PRC clasps and added it on. Logically because a Kuomintang medal wouldn't come along with a PRC clasp.

Since the buyer was told its from the Korean war, well it isn't a war award and it has nothing do with the Korean war.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[v.Perlet]

Have a look onto the three commemorative medallions - all original and from the flee-market.

 

1. Commemorative medallion in remembrance for Chines Hero  in Battle around Shanghai 1936 Zhongming island or Baoding taken by Japanese forces in 1936.

 

2&(3) are commemorative medallions are in remembrance of  the PLA liberating cities (Taiyuan) 1949 by the 60th infantry unit.

 

These medals were most likely produced and given in the 50/60's - which does not make them fakes.

War awards are almost impossible to come by and are a totally different caliber in size, choice of material and appearance.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

 

 

[JapanX]

All three are fakes.  

These medals were produced in the 2000s.

For naive collectors and tourists.

 

Some are pure fantasies (like Shanghai Hero 1936).

Others are caricatured copies of original medals.

Like this creature.

 

 

Original.

 

 

 

[v.Perlet]

All 3 were given to me by a Chinese gent who held them in his possession since the 60's -70's, so certainly can't be from 2000. He has absolutely no reason to make up a story. I bought exactly the same ones on a flee-market in 2010, for 15c in total just to see if there would be differences - no absolutely not.

 

The fake ones they produce are exactly like the gold medallion you posted. Selling them for US$ 50-100

Who would be interested even in China, to fake stuff selling at 10c a piece?

 

Regards

v.Perlet

 

 

 

 

[JapanX]

18 minutes ago, v.Perlet said:

All 3 were given to me by a Chinese gent who held them in his possession since the 60's -70's, so certainly can't be from 2000. 

 

Holy simplicity was all very well in its day, but its day is over.

 

18 minutes ago, v.Perlet said:

The fake ones they produce are exactly like the gold medallion you posted.

 

No, they are not "exactly like the gold medallion". Something we all should be thankful for.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by JapanX

[1812 Overture]

On 11/01/2022 at 21:10, v.Perlet said:

All 3 were given to me by a Chinese gent who held them in his possession since the 60's -70's, so certainly can't be from 2000. He has absolutely no reason to make up a story. I bought exactly the same ones on a flee-market in 2010, for 15c in total just to see if there would be differences - no absolutely not.

 

The fake ones they produce are exactly like the gold medallion you posted. Selling them for US$ 50-100

Who would be interested even in China, to fake stuff selling at 10c a piece?

 

Regards

v.Perlet

 

 

 

 

Dear Mr. v. Perlet, I don't mean to offend you, but the three medals in your collection are indeed fakes. . You know, if there is demand, there will be a market. There are many elderly people in China who have lost themselves and won medals in their daily lives, so it is also a good choice to buy an imitation product for filling. There are very few people who study medals in China, so most people can't tell the difference between real and fake medals. Therefore, some elderly people often pretend to be old soldiers with fake medals to gain sympathy. The medals made by the Kuomintang are usually American-style ribbons, not this kind of hanging. Although it is cheap, the manufacturing cost is also very low. Like the German 1914-1918 Honorary Cross Medal, there are also fakes. JapanX is right.

If you don't believe me, please refer to the following pictures, compare the colors and you will see that they all look the same. We have talked about this kind of low-end fakes many times in the forum, but there are still people who are fooled. . If you are in Qingdao (I am also from Qingdao), I suggest you go to Lijin Road Cultural Market (Antique Market) on Saturdays and Sundays. You will find that there are many medals like you on the stalls.

[v.Perlet]

Hello 1812Overture,

 

no problem I don't feel offended at all - i find this an interesting topic.

 

I am living in Suzhou at present - and all cities in China have these Flee/antique markets as you know.

One needs to differentiate clearly between war medals/war decorations and this commemorative "junk"

I do know 3 Korean war veterans and I have seen their medals. total beauties, massive and great workmanship

From my experience these veterans do not/are not willing to part from their medals and before these veterans pass away someone within the family will take hold of them.

 

Also as you might know, these veterans are being taken care of very well by the state. Those veterans that I know (rank two privates and one NCO) (1. a cook) (2. a radio operator) (3. infantry grunt) receive an average monthly pension of 12000 - 14000Rmb (which is 2 to 3 times as much as a factory worker gets and as such their family members are also under no financial pressure. Each of them despite their "low rank and combat activity" holds at average 8 of these beauties, plus 4-6 of these junk commemorative medals.

 

Taking into account that ca. 2,0 million men&women were participating in the PVA - this alone would account for 8-12 million of these junk medals since even if a person diseased/KIA, the families of those deceased then received them. Those serving during the Korean war in the PLA and political organizations numbered around 15 million men and women - and they too were awarded or bought by themselves patriotic "junk" adding up to around 60-70 million.

This figure of ca. 80 million junk medals in total is only in regards to the Korean war.

 

During the final liberation (1947-1949) around 18 million man and women of the PLA and its associated political institutions were decorated with these junk commemorative medals - adding up to around 100 million medals.

(not even counting replacements)

 

From 1949 -1969 including the culture revolution an estimated 100 million people wore voluntarily, or in order to keep a low profile these "junk" medals - adding up to around 500 million medals (not even counting replacements within these 20 years)

(Not even mentioning these Mao badges of which each single school kid and adult Chinese had at-least 2 pieces)

 

These three periods, Liberation, Korea war and the period 1949-1969 there were in total around 700 million commemorative junk medals distributed. (again not counting replacements in those 22 years)

If the state awards, prepares ca. 700 million medals one can be sure that the state must have probably commissioned around at least a billion (if not 2 billion within 22 years) of these medals. 

 

So if some one tells me that these commemorative medals (selling at average for 1Rmb (15c) are all fake or produced after 2000 - well I just start to....... Which does not mean that some rare or better looking ones, selling for 30Rmb/pc ($5pc) and above might be a so called 2000 production. However I would and have never paid more then 1 Rmb/pc for this genuine junk.

 

And to close my opinion, if someone I don't know personally would offer me a "genuine" war medal, e.g. Korea,

I won't go for it since these real medals even in China are bloody expensive and therefore highly prone to being faked.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[hc8604]

On 15/01/2022 at 08:16, v.Perlet said:

These three periods, Liberation, Korea war and the period 1949-1969 there were in total around 700 million commemorative junk medals distributed. (again not counting replacements in those 22 years)

If the state awards, prepares ca. 700 million medals one can be sure that the state must have probably commissioned around at least a billion (if not 2 billion within 22 years) of these medals. 

 

So if some one tells me that these commemorative medals (selling at average for 1Rmb (15c) are all fake or produced after 2000 - well I just start to....... Which does not mean that some rare or better looking ones, selling for 30Rmb/pc ($5pc) and above might be a so called 2000 production. However I would and have never paid more then 1 Rmb/pc for this genuine junk.

 

And to close my opinion, if someone I don't know personally would offer me a "genuine" war medal, e.g. Korea,

I won't go for it since these real medals even in China are bloody expensive and therefore highly prone to being faked.

 

Wait, you believe these are real medals? I am curious now as to where you are getting all this information from.

[v.Perlet]

Wait, you believe these are fake medals? I am curious now as to where you are getting all this information from.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[hc8604]

lol. You have to prove to us what you are saying is real, because I doubt you will find anybody on here that will believe any of what you have wrote. At least you got the part they are worth a few pennies right. They are basically worth its weight in scrap metal value.

[v.Perlet]

In general I am a person that let's people believe what ever they want to believe, as long as it makes them happy and has no negative effect on my life. (that even includes people who say that they had been kidnapped by UFO's)

 

So if those who believe that these Commemorative medals are all fake - well that's their choice, on what facts these choices/opinions are founded would be however interesting for me to know.

 

If you have photos of factories or countryside sheds, producing these Commemorative medals, selling at average for 1Rmb (that's US$15 cents for you) - feel free to post them. And just to be clear - I am referring to Commemorative Medals - NOT these "great looking ones' without a needle-system, but dangling from these 'high quality" clasps with beautiful red ribbons some interwoven with great looking white or yellowish horizontal stripes - fetching prices of up to US$150 in e.g. the States.

 

Have a look onto the photo that 1812 overture posted. NONE of these medals is a Chinese PRC Commemorative Medal - NONE.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited February 10, 2022 by v.Perlet

[hc8604]

Yeah the ones that he posted are all fakes. The majority are ROC medals or badges and none would be hanging off a the Communist style ribbons nor made from the same colored light brownish material.

 

There are some out there that have the Communist style ribbons as you said with the red ribbon with yellow stripes and thin hangers are real. They have baked on glass enamel in most cases. Some are very common and are more available than others. Of course they don't go for a few dollars. Hard to find ones do go for $150 or more and the common ones much less. For the actual prices, I would need to visit some Chinese auction or dealer sites.

 

If you mean the ones with just red ribbons with the ugly looking thicker hangers then yes those are the "fake" ones. They have painted enamel in most cases. I guess if they were called "restrikes" maybe it would be ok, but they aren't near the quality and have different inscriptions in some cases. For the most part, most collectors have called them "fakes."

 

The original issues that I have. These are the common ones out there, not $100+ rares, wished I have a few examples, but they are too costly as CCP medals are not my big focus.

[v.Perlet]

6 hours ago, hc8604 said:

..... as you said with the red ribbon with yellow stripes and thin hangers are real.........

 

Hello hc8604,

NO I NEVER said that these war awards/orders with these "high quality clasps" (that was meant as sarcasms) with these rubbish clasps - regardless of interwoven horizontal stripes or not, are real.

They are 99.99% fakes.

 

You need to have an original in your hand (in almost all cases known to me they are 20-25 % larger then these junk Orders) just judging from a photo without having seen and held certain medals/orders I would never state that this particular medal/order is real or fake.

Then there are the so called replacement orders that were usually meant to be send to the families - these are also around 10-15% larger then those junk Orders.

My knowledge towards war-awards/orders is restricted, I am more into Commemorative medals - I am however working on a task to get these orders in line with facts. Unfortunately these men I know who served in the Korean war are either 88+ or some already passed away in the last couple of month. Hopefully I will be able to meet one of them in about two weeks time.

 

Now don't pin me down yet - but according to my research and present knowledge the famous medal showing a soldier with his gun before the Flag (the middle one on the top row) is not a war combat award. At least I have never encountered an original so far by any of the veterans that I know.

General rule: any war award is either a pin-on/screw-on medal, or it has its own individual clasp and ribbon.

To me it is a Commemorative medal - and an original would be with a needle-pin on the back.

 

Take a look onto the photo I posted - all original war-medals are pin-on or display their own individual clasps and ribbons . the one on the "high quality" clasp with interwoven horizontal stripe is a FAKE.

See the wartime photo - the original war award is a pin-on and about 20% larger then the replacement medal with a clasp - and those FAKES are in turn smaller then the replacement medal and/or do not show a 3D surface.

 

Let's see if I get to know more in 2 weeks time.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by v.Perlet

[1812 Overture]

你这个老哥看着也挺精神。。怎么就不开窍呢？非得“不撞南墙不回头啊”。我们都在为你感到着急啊，担心你上当受骗

I found a random shop on Taobao. There are a lot of fakes like the ones you posted. We are serious. I hope you will not be deceived.

Unfortunately, the link cannot be sent here

These are all fakes! Do you understand?

[v.Perlet]

Hello 1813 Overture

 

there is no need for you or others to send me photos depicting fake medals - especially fake war medals.

 

As I already explained; anything not recorded by the Chinese government and/or Military museums e.g. in Nanjing = and as such also not acknowledged by me, as being an official war medal or Order (Thank God there are not many such medals and Orders) - is a FAKE. Especially those with a rubbish clasp, regardless of interwoven stripes or not is 99,99% fake - read my posts!

 

I know very well what real war awards look like, and again I am into COMMEMORATIVE CIVILIAN medals, and again, NONE of the ones you have posted so far are COMMEMORATIVE CIVILIAN medals - NONE!!! - so obviously you are not aware about the difference between COMMEMORATIVE CIVILIAN - PIN ON - MEDALS and those rubbish medals with rings and rubbish red ribbon clasps on them.

 

One of the fake commemorative WAR medals is displayed on the lower row - left.

See my attachment as to what the "real" WAR commemorative medal for VETERANS  looks like.

 

In the attachment you can see what an original war award looks like that was handed out and awarded to members of the PLA - NOT - PVA during the Korean war - in this case it is a Korean award handed out to one of the veterans that I am very attached to. Since he is a relative of mine.

 

Now I am waiting for the next wise guy to tell me that it is a fake. - sorry not personally meant towards you.

 

This topic China and the Korean war and what really went on is more or less totally unknown to Westerners. E.g. would you know that Chinese PLA troops fought in North-Korean uniforms? I am talking about knowing/proof and not assuming - as such would you know or recognize the difference between a North Korean shoulder-board and those "Korean shoulder-boards" worn by PLA - troops NOT - PVA soldiers? And as such with what medals those PLA soldiers and those PVA soldiers were awarded with?

 

Those medals are just a tiny part within a mostly totally unknown topic for Westerners.

 

So if you know something that I wouldn't please don't hesitate to tell me and don't waste your time sending me pictures of NON commemorative civilian medals and fake rubbish war or fake and rubbish commemorative veteran medals.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited February 13, 2022 by v.Perlet

[JapanX]

Damn you people! Stop harassing researcher!!!

 

This info is nothing but pure, 24-karat, unalloyed gold.

 

Quote

 

As I already explained; anything not recorded by the Chinese government and/or Military museums e.g. in Nanjing as being an official war medal, (Thank God there are not many such medals) - is a FAKE. Especially those with a rubbish clasp, regardless of interwoven stripes or not is 99,99% fake.

 

[v.Perlet]

Hello 1812 Overture,

 

sorry if my previous post sounds off as a bit of a harsh reply.

 

But sometimes I really get annoyed about constant posting and commenting about obvious fakes. The problem resulting from this, is that the real war awards/orders are not sufficiently researched and known to us in the West.

 

Due to this constant hopping up and down on obvious fakes - the general thought that anything that doesn't look like rubbish must be genuine has taken hold. Which in turn results in collectors paying big $ for very well made FAKES. I do not intend to destroy/hurt someones believe in having payed big $ for a "genuine" medal/order - but sadly having purchased exactly such fakes - selling for US$1000 -10,000 in both China and the West. So I will refrain from contacting or showing e.g. a Forum member what a "real" war Order looks like and how to recognize it.

 

But I will try to forward my opinion or concern in regards to those who post PRC war medals/orders that they intend to purchase and as such trying to point out the details that unmask a high quality, big $, fake. - due to my contacts and research I have knowledge about certain medals/awards - which however does presently not encompass every single war award or commemorative veterans award.

 

And try to keep in mind that just because a big$ fake comes in a "genuine" looking medal case has no bearing on the genuineness of the medal/order it beholds. faking a case or box is about the easiest thing one can do in this "Trade of Fakes".

 

Also one needs to be aware that persons that make/forge war-awards "exactly" as a genuine award - face serious reprisals by the Chinese government, then those who "imitate the looks" of medals/awards. (I assure you, that one doesn't want to get caught faking anything in China that is government supervised or military related - especially not since Xi Jinping came to power). So do not think of Mainland China being the prime source or manufacturer of "genuine looking" high-class fakes. - just my 5 cents.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited February 14, 2022 by v.Perlet

[1812 Overture]

8 hours ago, v.Perlet said:

Hello 1812 Overture,

 

sorry if my previous post sounds off as a bit of a harsh reply.

 

But sometimes I really get annoyed about constant posting and commenting about obvious fakes. The problem resulting from this, is that the real war awards/orders are not sufficiently researched and known to us in the West.

 

Due to this constant hopping up and down on obvious fakes - the general thought that anything that doesn't look like rubbish must be genuine has taken hold. Which in turn results in collectors paying big $ for very well made FAKES. I do not intend to destroy/hurt someones believe in having payed big $ for a "genuine" medal/order - but sadly having purchased exactly such fakes - selling for US$1000 -10,000 in both China and the West. So I will refrain from contacting or showing e.g. a Forum member what a "real" war Order looks like and how to recognize it.

 

But I will try to forward my opinion or concern in regards to those who post PRC war medals/orders that they intend to purchase and as such trying to point out the details that unmask a high quality, big $, fake. - due to my contacts and research I have knowledge about certain medals/awards - which however does presently not encompass every single war award or commemorative veterans award.

 

And try to keep in mind that just because a big$ fake comes in a "genuine" looking medal case has no bearing on the genuineness of the medal/order it beholds. faking a case or box is about the easiest thing one can do in this "Trade of Fakes".

 

Also one needs to be aware that persons that make/forge war-awards "exactly" as a genuine award - face serious reprisals by the Chinese government, then those who "imitate the looks" of medals/awards. (I assure you, that one doesn't want to get caught faking anything in China that is government supervised or military related - especially not since Xi Jinping came to power). So do not think of Mainland China being the prime source or manufacturer of "genuine looking" high-class fakes. - just my 5 cents.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Please flip through this link with some pictures I posted. My grandfather, who fought in the Korean War, died in November 2020 at age 94

My English is very poor, I can only rely on the translation to roughly understand what you mean. I feel that Mr. X in Japan is already angry?