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Romanian Eagle Honour Sign - Grand Officer Badge


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Hello! 
 

I have bought this wonderful Romanian Eagle Honour Sign made by the jeweller Heinrich Weiss and I have some questions: 

 

Can anybody help me with more informations about the number of awarded people or maybe some books where I can find the recipients?

I only know that is was awarded to senators and parliamentary. (Any information about the Sign is highly appreciated.)
 

It is possible that the Eagle could be made of gold? I’ve looked carefully and I couldn’t find any differences of color.
The Eagle has some kind of hallmark, a triangle. What could that mean? 
 

The badge is 72 mm Height and 72 mm Wide, and is weighing 73 grams.

 

Thank you very much.

 

 

Here are attached pictures: 

 

https://ibb.co/PzML723
https://ibb.co/RChYMf0
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https://ibb.co/2ZWJkqB
https://ibb.co/HhqSTGM
https://ibb.co/NWdk1Z9
https://ibb.co/jWHWfdw
https://ibb.co/Ydd4TPQ
https://ibb.co/G5GdK70
https://ibb.co/kBwJLB8
https://ibb.co/1QGHhP2
https://ibb.co/ZmgNPrD
https://ibb.co/6vV3SXK
https://ibb.co/T1ZNjMW
https://ibb.co/bKS2M4b
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https://ibb.co/x6JCZ0q
https://ibb.co/cLJ1r5k
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https://ibb.co/CtCVnkG
https://ibb.co/Fsbg0V0
https://ibb.co/rFhCHWM
https://ibb.co/P6KYMJr
https://ibb.co/12z9gf9

Edited by Nihil Sine Deo
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On 05/11/2021 at 20:08, Nihil Sine Deo said:

I have bought this wonderful Romanian Eagle Honour Sign made by the jeweller Heinrich Weiss and I have some questions:

Congratulations, if authentic it is a rare piece.

 

On 05/11/2021 at 20:08, Nihil Sine Deo said:

Can anybody help me with more informations about the number of awarded people or maybe some books where I can find the recipients?

You may try contacting the Parliament or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs if they have surviving archives on the awardees of this order.

 

On 05/11/2021 at 20:08, Nihil Sine Deo said:

It is possible that the Eagle could be made of gold? I’ve looked carefully and I couldn’t find any differences of color.

The eagle has some details indicating that it has been cast as opposed to being struck. Probably very few of these signs have been made to have accurate statistics, but it was rather unusual to use gold for the Romanian orders of the period.

 

On 05/11/2021 at 20:08, Nihil Sine Deo said:

The Eagle has some kind of hallmark, a triangle. What could that mean? 

Hallmark for silver. It is unfortunately incomplete to indicate purity.

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1 hour ago, Carol I said:

Congratulations, if authentic it is a rare piece.

 

You may try contacting the Parliament or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs if they have surviving archives on the awardees of this order.

 

The eagle has some details indicating that it has been cast as opposed to being struck. Probably very few of these signs have been made to have accurate statistics, but it was rather unusual to use gold for the Romanian orders of the period.

 

Hallmark for silver. It is unfortunately incomplete to indicate purity.

Thank you very much for your reply, It is indeed a splendid piece.

 

From my research I have found an parliamentary year-book but unfortunately it is from 1931 (here is the link). http://dspace.bcucluj.ro/bitstream/123456789/143044/1/BCUCLUJ_FP_264425_1932.pdf

 

I will try to contact the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, maybe they can help me with a recipient list. I would love to know how many were awarded, becuase I can make an Idea of how rare they were and maybe even find the recipients of the order from 1934. It was awarded one year later after it was instituted.

 

I know that on the pin there is a silver mark (the Crown) but I was referring at the marking that was stamped literally on the eagles left leg.

 

 

Warm regards,

Iulian.

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14 hours ago, Bayern said:

Ordinul vulturul Romaniei ,placa Mare Cruce . the eagle appears to be gilded silver , rare , the only pic I saw has a silver eagle .

Hello, in the catalogue Onoarea Natiunilor, at the description of this sign, the author says that the Eagle from the grand Officer badge must be gold or golden. In the pic that you saw it was possible to reflect other nuances. 
 

 

the only information I could find about how the bigger classes were awarded is this: 


88A76467-7EC0-4093-A844-6DF35BEEA2F4.thumb.jpeg.d0d191e19712799b8c394a79cb4f1957.jpeg

 

Best regards.

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Hello Nihil sine Deo, of the text you have posted emerges clearly that the grade of Grand Officer was awarded to the President / Presidents of the Legislative Corporations , thats reduce the search to those who presided the Senate and the Chamber of Deputies from 1933 onwards , well I am not sure if the Legislative Corps survived in Romania after the Abdication of King Carol II in 1940. 

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8 hours ago, Bayern said:

Hello Nihil sine Deo, of the text you have posted emerges clearly that the grade of Grand Officer was awarded to the President / Presidents of the Legislative Corporations , thats reduce the search to those who presided the Senate and the Chamber of Deputies from 1933 onwards , well I am not sure if the Legislative Corps survived in Romania after the Abdication of King Carol II in 1940. 

Hello, 

 

From my researches I found out that in the period of 1934-1935 (10 February 1934- 15 November 1935) the President of Romanian Senate was Leonte Moldovan (n. 18 februarie 1865 - d. 18 septembrie 1943) but I couldn’t find anything relevant about him.

 

The legislative corps indeed didn’t and couldn’t survive after Carol II abdication. 

 

Best regards, 

Iulian

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On 08/11/2021 at 00:13, Carol I said:

Congratulations, if authentic it is a rare piece.

 

You may try contacting the Parliament or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs if they have surviving archives on the awardees of this order.

 

The eagle has some details indicating that it has been cast as opposed to being struck. Probably very few of these signs have been made to have accurate statistics, but it was rather unusual to use gold for the Romanian orders of the period.

 

Hallmark for silver. It is unfortunately incomplete to indicate purity.

Hello, 

 

I have found an project law for this sign, but for the actual sign, and it describes the old order. From what I understand, the Eagle must have been made from gold. I will upload the document.

 

Best regards.

 

66E2AEC0-D686-464C-97B1-5B01DB93A168.thumb.png.e30ea8ed04d735d043434bf3b7b555fa.pngE98E980A-0748-4F46-8055-D64C7E04C51E.thumb.png.90d943c2a4bd24ec4039d4723e33467d.pngF649C64E-F5AA-4B88-9C0A-FEEA499F612C.thumb.png.c9a7535f01c62e6550d5488c5e97bbf4.png

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10 hours ago, Bayern said:

Iulian , and what about Nicolae Iorga ? and Constantin Argetoianu ? Alexandre I lapedatu ?  Best Regards , Bayern 

Hello, 

 

From my researches I’ve found the awards roll of Constantin Argetoianu but he didn’t recieved the 1st class of the sign.

 

His award roll is:

 

-Medalia jubiliară Carol I, Decret Regal Nr. 5384/28, Dec. 1905. Monitorul Oficial Nr. 218 / 1 ian. 1906 – 10 mai 1906;


-Medalia Bene Merenti a Casei regale, Grad: Ofițer, sau cl. II, Decret Regal Nr. 885/24 mar. 1909;

 

-Ordinul Steaua României, Grad: Comandor, Decret Regal din 21 oct. 1922;

 

-Ordinul Coroana României, Grad: Marea Cruce, Decret Regal din 22 ian. 1926;

 

-Ordinul Bene Merenti al Casei Regale, Grad: Comandor sau cl. I, Decret Regal Nr. 2749/ 3 nov. 1928 „Pentru merite istorice, literare și didactice”;


-Medalia „Răsplata muncii pentru învățământ”, cl. I, Decret Regal Nr. 4102 / 17 nov. 1930 „Pentru servicii aduse învățământului”;

 

-Semnul onorific „Răsplata muncii pentru 25 de ani în serviciul Statului”, Decret Regal Nr. 3994 / 10 December 1931;

 

-Ordinul „Meritul cultural pentru litere și opere literare”, Grad: Ofițer sau cl. I, Decret Regal din 22 September 1931 „Pentru servicii aduse școalei, bisericii precum și pe tărâm literar, artictic, științiific și social”;

 

-Medalia “Peleș”, instituită prin Decretul Regal Nr. 2305 / 16 aug. 1933; atribuită prin Decretul Nr. 224 / 25 sep. 1933;

 

-Semnul onorific “Vulturul României”, Grad: Comandor sau cl. II, Decret Regal Nr. 2762 / 11 nov. 1933;


-Ordinul Ferdinand I, Grad: Ofițer, Decret Regal din 15 mar. 1934;

 

-Medalia centenarului regelui Carol I, Decret Regal Nr. 1915, 2036 / 1939 și Nr. 372 / 1940

„Pentru contribuții aduse înzestrării oștirii”. Brevet dat de Ministerul înzestrării armatei, Nr. 6272 / p mar. 1940;

 

-Ordinul și Medalia „Meritul cultural”, Grad: Comandor, Decret Regal Nr. 248 / 1 February 1943 “Pentru litere”.


Distincții străine:

 

-Crucea Meritului Sfântului mormânt cu colan, Ierusalim, Decret Nr. 68 / 26 ian. 1924;

 

-Ordinul „Polonia Restituta”, Clasa: Mare Cruce, 1925;

 

-Medalia Ordinului Național al Legiunii de onoare, Grad: Comandor, Paris, Decret Nr. 56608 / 19 dec 1927;

 

-Ordinul Coroana Italiei, Grad: Mare Cruce, Cancelaria Ordinelor nr. 1067 / 8 iun. 1928

Ordinul St. Grigorie cel Mare, Grad: Mare Cruce (civil), Decret Pontifical al lui Pius XI / 10 sep. 1929;

 

-Ordinul Leul Alb, Grad: Mare Cruce, Decret al Președintelui Cehoslovaciei, 1937;

 

-Ordinul Coroana Yugoslaviei, Grad: Mare Cruce, Decret Nr. 1116 / 20 feb. 1937.


Unfortunately I couldn’t find the list of awards for Nicolae Iorga or Constantin Argetoianu but I’ve found out that Ioan Pop (lawyer) had recieved the sign in 1st class.

This is the Wikipedia page:

 

https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioan_Pop_(avocat)

 

Best regards,

Iulian.

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Hello.  I completely agree with the observation of Carol I that the eagle is a casting and not die-struck.  The soft details, casting seams, misruns, cold-shuts, inclusions, burrs, and the gas porosity defects seen all over the surface (such as the numerous pinhole defects) are unmistakable characteristics of a poorly executed casting.

 

The reverse medallion featuring the maker's hallmark is also a casting.  Moreover, the hand-painted decorations of the enameling are somewhat unsophisticated.  Nothing about this piece indicates to me that it was made by a professionally trained and experienced jeweler to a royal court.   

 

I strongly recommend that you get in touch with Bogdan Stambuliu of La Galerie Numismatique who is a top expert in Romanian orders and decorations.  You should send him detailed pictures and ask him if he wants to buy this piece because then, you will get an evaluation without being charged for an appraisal.  In spite of my evaluation, am hoping that Mr. Stambuliu gives you positive feedback about your star.  

Regards.  

 

 

Grand Officer Star.jpg

Edited by Triadoro
Added a Photo from OMSA
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Hello Sir,

 

Thank you for you opinion, but honestly I think the badge is original having in thought the striking details from the Eagle, or the incredible paintings that are on the middle. Please do not forget that the shield is only 16 millimeters in height and 12 millimeters wide, so for that size, the painting is of a rare beauty (the details like the bridge, the auroch or the dolphins).

1 hour ago, Triadoro said:

 

Grand Officer Star.jpg

Edited 17 minutes ago by Triadoro
Added a Photo from OMSA

The photo you show me as original it is exactly the same piece (number 9 on the pin and the shield is damaged on the upper left side). 

 

Regards.

 

 

 

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The photo I attached is published on the Orders & Medals Society of America website and is not taken in high-resolution.  It appears that they used a photo of the star you purchased.  This occurs when a piece is so rare, that photos of only one or two examples are available to post on the OMSA website.

 

The main issue is still very much a problem and is not ever going to be rationalized away.  The eagle and the reverse medallion exhibit all the characteristics of having been cast, not die-struck.  Take it from somebody who has collected orders and decorations for a very long time... discovering that something like this is a casting is like the kiss of death.

 

There are quite a few threads on W.A.F that deal with how to identify pieces that are cast versus pieces that are die struck.  I listed some of these issues with your star in my previous post.  If one intends to seriously pursue collecting orders, decorations, badges and even militaria in general, being able to distinguish between these two production methods is absolutely critical.

 

I still think it would be a good idea to contact Bogdan Stambuliu for his expert-opinion on this matter.

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5 minutes ago, Triadoro said:

The photo I attached is published on the Orders & Medals Society of America website and is not taken in high-resolution.  It appears that they used a photo of the star you purchased.  This occurs when a piece is so rare, that photos of only one or two examples are available to post on the OMSA website

I don’t think that OMSA would put fake orders and medals as references. 
 

As you can observe in the pictures below the Eagle is not casted, it is made from three different pieces. And it would make sense to not make it entire from gold, because it would be too heavy (it has 73 grams). I think that tomorrow I will go and have it tested for gold.

 


I will try to contact Mr. Bogdan and see his opinion and offer.

 

Best regards.

 

B7-CC9-AA9-780-B-429-F-A2-C0-1-D23-CCF6-E430-FBDF-3532-42-D6-957-A-8-B060207-C31FF9-F1-FF1-14-F8-4-B50-A694-64259-F36-EC

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