Iron Cross 2nd class 1870 reduction

[VFMR]

Dear mates,

 

I'm thinking to buy this cross, it looks good to me, but I can not recognize the maker mark. What do you think? (it's about 35mm, Prinzengrösse).

 

Thanks for your help, best regards

 

 

 

[VtwinVince]

Normally you see this setup with the EL as suspension on full size Jubilee crosses from around 1900. I've never seen a mini like this, nor have I seen one with maker marks.

[v.Perlet]

hello VFMR,

 

speaking only for myself: I wouldn't purchase it.

 

The figures of the number 1870 are not matching to a real sized Typ A or Typ B, neither in regards to an overlapping 8, nor a flat 8.

A skilled jeweler -  someone like e.g. GODET "maybe" manufacturing such an item from around 1900 or rather afterwards would know about these features.

I also would fully agree with VtwinVince comments, whereas the comment regarding markings would refer to original sized EK's.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited February 19, 2022 by v.Perlet

[saschaw]

This type is well-know and widely considered fake. If you search for "small crown fake" on this forum, you'll find a very educative thread here. There has also been some reference to these fakes in this long obsolete thread. Most striking feature is their die-struck and painted, though stepped core. Besides that, they're around as 1813, 1870, 1914 and even 1939 crosses... and all are from the same tools.

 

 

On 19/02/2022 at 07:23, v.Perlet said:

The figures of the number 1870 are not matching to a real sized Typ A or Typ B (...)

A reduced size cross, a miniature, or any private purchase piece would not necessarily share the design features of the award type. In fact, they tend not to do so. After all, every tool maker, as an artisan, has their own small characteristics of design...

 

 

On 19/02/2022 at 07:23, v.Perlet said:

I also would fully agree with VtwinVince comments, whereas the comment regarding markings would refer to original sized EK's.

As a non-Native speaker, I might have gotten you wrong here, but: Full sized 2nd class crosses from the 1870 type are usually not maker marked. This is true for 100 % of the awarded crosses, and more than 95% of later private purchase pieces. Thus, a maker mark on a 1870 2nd class cross is generally perceived as a "red flag".

 

 

[v.Perlet]

Hello saschaw,

 

It was in reference to an original sized EK2 1870 - which does not behold markings, as for a Miniature I wouldn't know, since I have never encountered one. - therefore I forwarded that I fully agree with Vtwin Vince comments, but regarding markings not appearing on a miniature EK2, I can only fully agree towards this comment in regards to an original sized EK2.

 

Assuming that e.g. Godet might have made Prinzengroesse EK70' - I could well imagine that the numbers and other details would have been made as correct as possible.

 

But anyhow you already forwarded that "This type is well-know and widely considered fake".

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[VtwinVince]

I believe the only genuine full size examples with marked ring are from Louis Lemke, but I'm no EK expert, so perhaps someone more knowledgeable can confirm.

[v.Perlet]

On 21/02/2022 at 01:06, VtwinVince said:

I believe the only genuine full size examples with marked ring are from Louis Lemke, but I'm no EK expert, so perhaps someone more knowledgeable can confirm.

According to the following research - No

http://www.medalnet.net/Eisernes_Kreuz_1870.htm

Regards

v.Perlet

[VFMR]

Dear friends, thank you very much for your replies, they were well founded and I'm very grateful about the links of old threads to learn mroe about, I never deal before with reductions and not much with the 1870 EK's. 

 

That is what i love from this hobby, you always have to learn something new

 

See you in the forum!

[Graf]

his type is well-know and widely considered fake. If you search for "small crown fake" on this forum, you'll find a very educative thread here. There has also been some reference to these fakes in this long obsolete thread. Most striking feature is their die-struck and painted, though stepped core. Besides that, they're around as 1813, 1870, 1914 and even 1939 crosses... and all are from the same tools.

 

I agree with this comment.

[saschaw]

On 22/02/2022 at 01:42, v.Perlet said:

According to the following research - No

http://www.medalnet.net/Eisernes_Kreuz_1870.htm

No sure if I got you wrong (again), but: Do you claim this article refers to authentic 1870 crosses bearing several different makers' markings? I thought I knew Mike's work well, but couldn't find such information. Could you maybe correct what I might have misunderstood here, please?!

 

 

 

On 01/04/2022 at 11:03, Graf said:

I agree with this comment.

Thanks, Graf, I'm glad to hear you agree!

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by saschaw

[v.Perlet]

Hello saschaw,

 

The article states that original EK II's 1870 do NOT have maker marks on the ring

 

Regards

Andreas