Saxony Civil Merit Order, Coat of Arms

[LuckySlevin]

Hi Gentlemen, 

I would be very grateful to know your opinion on the following. 

Currently there is an auction on ebay of a bar with a civil merit order 2 class which looks great. The only one thing which is bothering me is the coat of arms. 

The order has a R mark for Roesner. All the orders made by this jeweller had a small cross on top. On this one it is missing. Below I show few examples of the coat of arms from Roesner: 

All the examples which I found from maker R have the cross on top of coat of arms. 

The other maker S does not have the cross on top and the coat of arms has slightly different design (will post below). 

 

Does anyone has a Roesner example with a missing cross on coat of arms or the one from ebay just lost it ? 

 

Thank you, 

Lucky

Here is the coat of arms from maker S: 

The main difference (which I spot) is the design of coat of arms and the different type of letters. 

 

 

[BlackcowboyBS]

Sorry, maybe I don't get you right, but are you talking about the missing globus cruciger on the crown abow the coat of arms? (see red circled on the photo)

If so, then it looks like this upper part of the crown was just broken and so it is purely damaged and not another version. Or did I get you wrong, then I would like to understand what you are talking about.

Edited March 22, 2022 by BlackcowboyBS

[LuckySlevin]

Yes exactly, sorry if it was not clear. I am speaking about the damaged top of the coat of arms. So it is indeed damaged and not a different version unfortunately . 

[BlackcowboyBS]

That's what I would say, but your photos aren't the best, so hard to say. 

[VtwinVince]

I've been a collector of Saxon bars for many years, and I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this one. Firstly, I don't know what happened to the device on the Merit Order. Secondly, the precedence can vary regarding the Albert and Merit Orders, I have bars where one takes precedence, or the other. Thirdly, Scharffenberg DID use hooks for mounting decorations, I have a bar with the St. Henry Order which contradicts your statement. The use of this label can also be explained. I agree that the reverse hardware is not typical, but this is not sufficient for me to dismiss this one.

[Nicolas7507]

Vince is right.

 

The order of saxon orders varies on bars. I have seen many examples of wrong orders of precedence.

 

Look at the bars of GL Johann Pflugbeil and GM Johannes Hahn for example.

[BlackcowboyBS]

First: Well I know the Scharffenberg backside like this. Second: I guess I have seen medal bars with Albrecht first then merit order and both with swords, at least this is how I remember them. But if just one of them with swords then he must be worn first, thats for sure. 

 

[LuckySlevin]

I am very sorry to put my 10 cents, but the order of the decorations is not enough to dismiss this bar. Below are some photos from this forum: 

 

[VtwinVince]

OK, I'll get some out to illustrate my points.

[BlackcowboyBS]

Gentlemen,

I really appreciate this discussion and more so the way it is done. Thx for it. 

[LuckySlevin]

I would like also to thank everyone for their opennesses and shared knowledge!  

[VtwinVince]

Here are a couple of bars, as you can see the top one has the Merit Crosses of the Albert and Merit Orders, with the precedence inverted. The second has the expected order. The third is a Scharffenberg creation which uses the tailor hooks. Sorry about the orientation of the images, not sure why that happened.

[BlackcowboyBS]

Hi Vince, they are all great bars, thats for sure. But none of these bars conflicts with the post from Triadoro. All of your bars are post WW1 and what Triadoro claimed is, that Scharffenberg would never have mixed the order of precendence when building a medal bar before end of WW1. Your bar shown in the middle is not from Scharffenberg so no discrepancy at all. 

 

So we can recap: Scharffenberg medal bar made before End of WW1 should have St Henry - Merit Order - Albrecht Order, medal bars post WW1 could be mixed up, maybe even from Scharffenberg, but that point still needs approval! 

 

PS: looking at the medal bar shown by Simius Rex it is also a post WW1 medal bar, but maybe not done by Scharffenberg himself but by another jewler who just used the old backside of the original one usings the middle of the old blanket? just my 2ct

Edited March 24, 2022 by BlackcowboyBS

[VtwinVince]

Thanks for your comments.