restoration project

[LuckySlevin]

Hi, 

 

I am soon to receive the following bar which unfortunately had seen some difficult times but definitely belonged to a Romanian Military officer with an interesting career:

 

I would be very grateful if you could share your opinions on the story of this guy and the missing orders I need to complete it:

 

Here is what I think but I can be wrong:

 

I think it is obvious it is a pre WW1 bar and given that all of the orders are peace decorations (expect the medal for the Balcanic war), the missing orders should be also peace ones:

 

7. It is obvious that it is a Saint Alexander 4th class without swords

8. Order or the Iron Crown -I guess the non-war issue which should be in gold -I think very rare for a Romanian to get

9. Order of Danilo 4th class or 5th class but I think given the rank of other orders it should be 4th class.

 

Is it possible to find the wearer ? 

Are there somewhere available  lists of Romanians who got the Danilo order or the Iron Crown as they should not be too many? 

 

Any comments are welcome!

 

Thank you in advance, 

Lucky

[JohanH]

Could it be a Danish Dannebrogorden in last place?

Or a Swedish Sword order in 8th place? The ribbon doesn't really look right for it...

 

I know there were quite a lot of Romanians that got the Order of the Sword. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by JohanH

[LuckySlevin]

Hi JohanH, 

Thank you a lot for your answer!

Indeed I agree with you that 9 ribbon seems to be of Danish Dannebrogorden because the white edge is narrow while Danilo Order would have a wider one. 

Also the Swedish Order of Sword would go better with the Danish one even if the ribbon looks to be wrong but may be the wearer just put the closest ribbon he could find. 

 

I did not know that there were a lot of Romanians who received the Order of Sword. 

Could you please give some context how this could happen and if you are aware of some lists. 

 

Thank you in advance, 

Lucky

 

 

 

[JohanH]

I don't know about the context but I can give you some numbers. 

 

Grand commander -  4

Commander 1st class - 10

Commander 2nd class - 29

Knight 1st class - still working on the roll so unknown so far. 

Knight 2nd class - 2

 

It seems like alot of awards were made on April 17th 1885. I believe the Swedish king made a state visit to Romania then.

 

IF your medalbar has a Order of the Sword it would probably be a Knight class, since the commander is a neck cross. I am working on the roll of recipients but it goes slowly. I have to many projects going.

 

 

I made a quick look in the Swedish state calendar of 1914 and found 12 romanians with the Knight 1st class. 

I also cross checked the names in the Danish state calendar of 1914 and found the following with both Order of Sword and Dannebrogorden:

 

Dimitrie Poenaru

Constantin Manescu 

 

It is possible that I missed some or that the Dannebrogorden was awarded later. Or the ribbon is of something different than Swedish and Danish. 

[LuckySlevin]

Unfortunately it is not Constantin Manescu as awards do not match. 

For Dimitrie Poenaru still trying to find out. 

[JohanH]

If it is of any help Poenaru was in the Romanian Navy. 

 

He is listed as major in 1905 and as commander in 1914. He received the order of the Sword in 1895.

[LuckySlevin]

Dimitrie Poenaru (1860-1932) should be our guy. 

 

Found him in a book:

 Order of Takovo knight 1884

Order of Dannebrog Officer 1895

Order of the Sword 1895 Knight

Order of Saint Alexander Bulgaria 1898

25 year Service 1904

French Legion of Honour 1909

Order of the Romanian Crown Officer 1912

Order of the Star Romania Officer 1914

 

retired after 1915

 

Another photo of the last  2 ribbons:

 

The last one is obviously Dannebrog. 

Also the seller actually has an Order of the Sword which he claimed to come with the bar but I was unsure because of unclear ribbon and I was clearly wrong.

 

There were only 2 guys who received the Dannebrog in 1895 in Officer class.

 

In the book it is not mentioned the Medalia „Avântul Țării” but he is mentioned in a document related to operations of 

of the fleet on the Danube during the Balcan Wars.

 

There is even a photo but unfortunately it is very unclear: 

 

 

For some reason he did not put on the bar the very first Order of Takovo, the bar was made after 1914, when he received the Order of the Star.

 

 

 

 

[JohanH]

Nice work!

 

How much does he want for the Order of the Sword? 

[LuckySlevin]

roughly 800 eur and the Order has some email losses-I think the price is too high.

[JohanH]

I agree. 800e is to much for a damaged piece. 

 

But you need to find one without any hallmarks. They started to hallmark Swedish orders and medals in 1914.

And of course it needs be to the gold version. The gilt version was given to foreigners since 1926. 

[LuckySlevin]

Understood, thank you a lot for sharing the information !!!

 

Thank you for mentioning the 2 names, it is quite surprising that this one was identifiable! 

This is the order of Sword he is offering: 

 

He says it is in gold, 17.69G and did not mention any hallmarks. 

 

I guess this one fits well into the story ?

[Great Dane]

Well done guys!

 

And bear in mind that the Order of Dannebrog Knight class was not split in 2 (Officer and Knight) until 1952.

Until then there was just one Knight class (Knight) with the insignia in gold/enamel and no rosette on the ribbon.

[LuckySlevin]

Hi Great Dane, 

 

Thank you a lot for the information. 

Now on the hunt for the missing pieces! 

 

 

[Carol I]

On 09/08/2022 at 09:33, JohanH said:

It seems like alot of awards were made on April 17th 1885. I believe the Swedish king made a state visit to Romania then.

The King of Sweden was on a visit to Romania between 3(15) and 5(17) April 1885 on his way back from Constantinople. The visit was described by the Official Gazette of 6(18) April 1885. 

[JohanH]

17 hours ago, LuckySlevin said:

Understood, thank you a lot for sharing the information !!!

 

Thank you for mentioning the 2 names, it is quite surprising that this one was identifiable! 

This is the order of Sword he is offering: 

 

He says it is in gold, 17.69G and did not mention any hallmarks. 

 

I guess this one fits well into the story ?

 

Unfortunate about the enamel damage. Otherwise it is a very nice piece.

The price is a bit high but on the other hand it would be nice to have the original order that goes with the bar...

[LuckySlevin]

Unfortunately he already sold it, I was too slow. 

 

Will have to find it somewhere else.

[Graf]

Why he had to sell the Order of the sword on its own For profit?!

Also it looks very well preserved comparing to the ones on the bar especially the Legion of Honour and the Order of St Alexander ..and missing Danish Order It does not make any sense to me The Order of the Sward is much more delicate especially the central medallions  enamel

Any way you have the task to help history by finding the missing orders ..or leave it like it is

 

Cheers

[Great Dane]

The Order of Dannebrog may have been returned as requested. Although it became harder and harder to get orders returned from foreign recipients (thus the change to silver gilt in the 1920s), some (heirs) actually followed the procedure.

[LuckySlevin]

Hi, 

Interesting remarks. 

I don't see for now a reason why there is such a difference in preservation of last 4 awards. But the seller ( and me too) could not correctly identify the last ribbon as being a Dannebrog one.  I think the order of the sword was removed and preserved separately as it was made from gold and clearly few times higher of price than other decorations on the bar.

 

I think the bar itself gives an impression that there was a hard removal of last orders from the way it os deformated. 

 

 

[JohanH]

Here is the entry for Poenaru in the order roll. 

He received the order on the same day (June 29th 1895) as Major Constantin Manescu. 

A few Spanish navy lieutenants also received the Order of the Sword the same day.