Marcus66 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 Hi All, I have had this cross in my collection for quite some time and would like to identify the maker. I know the ribbon is authentic, however I am skeptical about the cross being without swords as this would make it exceedingly rare. Can anyone identify the maker of this particular cross? Thanks Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtwinVince Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 It looks to me like a manipulated piece with swords removed, although I'm definitely no expert on Bavarian MVK's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spolei Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 Hello, the manufacturer is Leser Munich, but this is not an early type of Leser MVK. The third class without swords was awarded 18 times, very, very rare. Your cross is not one of the 18. The ribbon looks good, it is a prewar-ribbon . Regards Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus66 Posted September 2, 2022 Author Share Posted September 2, 2022 1 hour ago, spolei said: Hello, the manufacturer is Leser Munich, but this is not an early type of Leser MVK. The third class without swords was awarded 18 times, very, very rare. Your cross is not one of the 18. The ribbon looks good, it is a prewar-ribbon . Regards Andreas Thank you Andreas, I was very skeptical about this being one of the 18, and your information confirms my suspicions. I do like the look of this particular piece though and will keep it as is. Thank you kindly for the information!! Regards Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 As has been pointed out, this is one of the common manipulated pieces. For the only authentic peace time 3rd class cross I am aware of so far, albeit with crown, see here. Not one more showed up ever, from what I know... On 02/09/2022 at 19:53, spolei said: The third class without swords was awarded 18 times, very, very rare. Just curious, Andreas, where are those numbers from? I work with those published by Bernd Döbel on SDA forum, and there's just one(!) single peace time 3rd class cross, plus 24 more without swords on the war merit ribbon. Did I miss something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spolei Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 4 hours ago, saschaw said: As has been pointed out, this is one of the common manipulated pieces. For the only authentic peace time 3rd class cross I am aware of so far, albeit with crown, see here. Not one more showed up ever, from what I know... Just curious, Andreas, where are those numbers from? I work with those published by Bernd Döbel on SDA forum, and there's just one(!) single peace time 3rd class cross, plus 24 more without swords on the war merit ribbon. Did I miss something? Hello Sascha, I have an evaluation of the VOBl. of a collector colleague with the names of the persons in favour. I checked again, there are not 18 but 25 (please excuse this). The last one listed is Franz Kuhejda, valet of the field marshal Archduke Friedrich of Austria. According to this list, all for war merit, no pre-war awards, with five awards in 1914 and the rest in 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted April 24, 2023 Share Posted April 24, 2023 (edited) On 06/09/2022 at 16:14, Simius Rex said: Well... maybe yes, maybe no. The opening in your cross is so big, I could drive a truck through it, in a manner of speaking. With an opening so large, it really becomes difficult to determine if swords were ever attached to this cross... or not. Not sure how your driving capability could affect the authenticity of this Bavarian cross... Authentic pieces are not determined by the extent of the opening, but by the proper maker, proper die condition, proper maker's marks, and - in this mounted group - by a combination that fits the few known awardees. A shame it didn't come with any documentation or even a hint to its former owner! By the way, this very bar will be featured in the decades-long awaited and soon-to-be published work by Sascha Zimmermann. On 06/09/2022 at 17:53, spolei said: I have an evaluation of the VOBl. of a collector colleague with the names of the persons in favour. I checked again, there are not 18 but 25 (please excuse this). It's odd everyone has different numbers! Bernd Döbel created his statistics from the original rolls in the Munich archive. Just another reason I really can't wait for SZ's books any longer... Edited April 24, 2023 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spolei Posted April 28, 2023 Share Posted April 28, 2023 After 20 years of MVK searching, I was now able to get my first piece without swords. It is a second class from Hemmerle. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 Servus Andreas, a super MVK of the 3rd form without swords, Congratulation on this rarity. Best regards Walter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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