Show yoer cases

[Bretzen]

Hello Forum,

 

I have a thought that has been on my mind for a long time.

I would like to start a post where all members show their cases to the civil merit order. And in addition give the time estimate - if possible.

I don't know, if there has been such a post in the past her on the forum. If so, please give me the link, then I will enjoy reading the post and learn something.

But if this post is of interest, I would be very happy to have the largest and most diverse participation possible.

What is your opinion on such a venture?

I'm asking for honest opinions. If it is not interesting, you can remove this post.

 

Regards Bretzen

 

This is how I could imagine it.

 

1. Illustration of the lid.
2. Possibly an enlargement of the imprint.
3. If present, the manufacturer on the inside.
4. And the dimensions, length x width. This case: 35.5 cm x 13.0 cm.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Bretzen

[new world]

Some early Civil Merit cases had very distinct design - top portion was a bit wider that the sides of the box, almost like roof on the house. I will have to dig out some samples in my collection.   

[Graf]

11 hours ago, new world said:

Some early Civil Merit cases had very distinct design - top portion was a bit wider that the sides of the box, almost like roof on the house. I will have to dig out some samples in my collection.   

Yes I have some of them as well.

 

It will be nice to show the Decoration (optional) inside as well ..from the relevant period. I have seen few examples when the decoration did not match the box

6th Class box

estimate period 1891 till 1901

Box 130 mm long 65 wide 20 mm high

 

[Graf]

4th Class box -Officer Class

Prince Ferdinand period 1891-1908

Box 130 mm long 65 wide 20 mm high

 

Note the "small roof" on the lid mentioned by New World

This features appear in all boxes from the 1st  Prince Ferdinand issue 1891-1908 period

Note this "small roof " features even on the 1st Issue of the Order of Military merit "with Glass " enamel

12 hours ago, new world said:

Some early Civil Merit cases had very distinct design - top portion was a bit wider that the sides of the box, almost like roof on the house. I will have to dig out some samples in my collection.   

 

[Graf]

BTW The 1st Class  box listed by Bretzen is from the same Prince Ferdinand period 1891-1908

[Graf]

 Box for 3rd Class Commander

 

From Prince Ferdinand period 1891-1908

Box !55 mm long 80 mm wide 30 mm high

Note the "small roof" edge on the lid

[Graf]

Box for 5th Class without a crown from Prince Ferdinand Period Estimate 1900 1908

Made by Rothe Vienna

Box 103 mm long  60 mm wide 18 mm high

Box for 5th Class Knight  with crown

Prince Ferdinand period 1891-1908

 

Box 112 mm long 65 mm wide 20mm high

No maker mark on the lid inside

Edited March 6, 2023 by Graf

[Graf]

Box for 2nd Class for ladies

King Ferdinand period 1908-1918

Box 107 mm long 105 mm wide 22mm high

[Graf]

2nd Class box

King Boris Period - 1937 Emission

Box 255 mm long 112 mm wide 33 mm high

[ilieff]

I appreciate the very interesting topic and the admirable initiative to compare boxes/producers etc. 

BUT

I've got the feeling this would also be a great source of info for people trying to fake original boxes, too. I hope I am wrong. 🤞

[Graf]

Hi Ilieff,

I share your concern, however the fakers can use other sources to do their sinister work.

Few years ago when i started the topic about the fake Bulgarian Orders and decorations, I did think that this would be a good way to protect he collectors from those fakers. However, I was also aware that those fakers will use the forum to "improve" their work Unfortunately we can not avoid this

Also i have my concerns that the information from this forum could be abused

[new world]

We can't really stop discussions on awards in fear that information could be used for counterfeits. 

 

Fact is that fakers will never be able to make exact copies of awards, cases and documents. There always will be something not on par with the originals. The key is share the knowledge, so more collectors can recognize the fakes. 

[Graf]

1 hour ago, new world said:

We can't really stop discussions on awards in fear that information could be used for counterfeits. 

 

Fact is that fakers will never be able to make exact copies of awards, cases and documents. There always will be something not on par with the originals. The key is share the knowledge, so more collectors can recognize the fakes. 

Exactly

[Graf]

Box for Civil Merit Order -2nd Class for ladies

Estimate time 1937 Model  King Boris period

Note this is one of the models boxes made during King Boris Period

Box size 118 mm long 105 mm wide 18 mm high

 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Graf

[Graf]

The other model used during the King Boris period 1933-1943

Size is the same as the other model listed earlier

Box size 118 mm long 105 mm wide 18 mm high

[Bretzen]

Hello,

unfortunately I only found time to look at this post again today and I'm thrilled at how much of a response it has already received.

I understand ilieff's concerns, but I see it just like new world.

I am very sure that you cannot counterfeit these cases unless you have the right old paper, the right fabric, and most importantly! - the original embossing stamp for printing is available.
Re-manufacturing the embossing stamp is almost impossible and far too expensive.
I say, really good photos to recognize an original is very important!
Anyone can then easily recognize a fake. Never the right paper in the right production period will be found on a forgery.

Example coat of arms:
Never will a forger be able to reproduce something like that.
- Not the type of paper
- not the embossing stamp

The only thing needed is enough time of the collector to look at the offer.

 

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

[Bretzen]

May I suggest that we first focus on the early cases for crosses with round crowns.

 

For these early cases, I can identify four different coat of arms embossings. And all cases are made by Johann Schwerdtner.
Of course, not only are the four coat of arms imprints different, but the manufacture of the cases is also different accordingly.

But before you now think, he is completely drunk, I would like to hear or read your opinion about it.

 

And three more photos to look at.

 

[Carol I]

My modest contribution, a Schwerdtner case with "eaves" (as mentioned by new world):

[Graf]

On 12/03/2023 at 06:33, Bretzen said:

May I suggest that we first focus on the early cases for crosses with round crowns.

 

For these early cases, I can identify four different coat of arms embossings. And all cases are made by Johann Schwerdtner.
Of course, not only are the four coat of arms imprints different, but the manufacture of the cases is also different accordingly.

But before you now think, he is completely drunk, I would like to hear or read your opinion about it.

 

And three more photos to look at.

 

Hi Uwe,

 

Thank you for showing the boxes for the classes from 1st to 5th in a nice display

You might have started with this display and we can compliment with with our dispose.

I hope my contribution helped with your mission

I never paid attention about the different prints and makers marks I only noticed that some of the boxes had dark print like my 4th Class. i do not think that they are copies I also do not know were to classify my 5th Class by Rothe

I will try to look more in details the prints and the marks in order to support your statement, although i trust you with your findings

Here i will try to rotate some of the photos with the print and the maker mark inside

Not all low classes boxes were maker marked Like the V-th Class box

[new world]

6 hours ago, Graf said:

I only noticed that some of the boxes had dark print like my 4th Class. i do not think that they are copies

 

I think this box originally had gold print, however it became dark with time. Probably due to conditions it was stored in.

[Graf]

That is possibility

1 hour ago, new world said:

I think this box originally had gold print, however it became dark with time. Probably due to conditions it was stored in.

 

[Graf]

On 06/03/2023 at 19:28, Graf said:

Box for 2nd Class for ladies

King Ferdinand period 1908-1918

Box 107 mm long 105 mm wide 22mm high

 

one more variation of this model