Decoration of the Red Cross with a particular mark: help wanted

[Carlo]

Good morning everyone,
I recently got this beautiful decoration of the Red Cross (2nd class) on a women's bow, nothing rare, but still a beautiful decoration.

As I was inspecting it I found the classic maker's marks (GAS in this case) and material marks, but on the body I found another mark I hadn't seen yet, an F on the lower right portion of the central medallion.

I was hoping some of you knew more so I could identify it.

 

Carlo

[Graf]

[Carlo]

19 hours ago, Graf said:

I thought about it, but looking closely unfortunately it doesn't seem to be the right one.....

[Great Dane]

Could it be one of the Austria-Hungary Assay City letters referenced here?

[Graf]

Hi I looked this option as well However i came across information that this mark was for to the city was Lwow  ?! which was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire

[Carlo]

On 27/04/2023 at 12:57, Graf said:

Hi I looked this option as well However i came across information that this mark was for to the city was Lwow  ?! which was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire

It could be, in the silver hallmarks of 1872 - 1922, among the letters indicating the city of production, the F stands for L'viv/Lemberg.
But the medal is marked with Diana's head and the letter A, indicating that it was made in Vienna.

[Graf]

Interesting that "F" mark is used on the back of Bulgarian Order   a rare model 1915-1916 The Order was made in Austria

It is made by silvered brass

I will post the reverse with the mark later on

Edited April 29, 2023 by Graf

[Elmar Lang]

I suspect that this mark could be something struck to indicate a batch of production or some reference related to internal administration of the makers...

[Graf]

This is the reverse of the Bravery Order picture taken from the internet

 

You can see the "F" mark clearly on the one of the swords

 

I will list mine tomorrow

Although the seller claims to be made in Germany Those crosses were made in Austria

Only 1941 Model were known to be made in Germany

[Carlo]

1 hour ago, Elmar Lang said:

I suspect that this mark could be something struck to indicate a batch of production or some reference related to internal administration of the makers...

 

I think this is the most plausible explanation.

[Graf]

[Farkas]

Hi Gents,

an interesting question that doesn’t seem to have an obvious answer despite there being pretty good information on here and the web about jewellers marks.

 

It is normal to see most official marks ‘boxed’ in, all the assay office punch marks & the ‘Frei’ mark are.

 

This F is not listed as a different registered makers mark and not the known GAS marks either.

 

In my hunt I did find reference to ‘scratch marks’, these are different to the jewellers maker mark, mostly just 1 or 2 letters and engraved (scratched) not stamped.

 

 

 

As there is no reason I can see for Scheid to use an F to represent GAS.

So I wondered if it may have been an individual craftsman mark… but the appearance of an F on both of the 2 Bulgarian Crosses 👇 presumably made by a different firm makes that most unlikely.

On 29/04/2023 at 23:54, Graf said:

I also wondered if the F might be because the award was for a woman (F for female) though obviously that’s English not German…

but again the Bulgarian cross negates that because Its pretty likely it was for a man.

I did find one other GAS mark that is a silver mark, this has the letter Z 👇. Totally different in appearance but it must represent something 🤷‍♂️

and I found another Bulgarian Bravery order with the F on the same arm as the others 

 

My only other thought is there was a guy called Fraget who did just about all silver playing for years, is it possible he silver plated these medals?

🤷‍♂️

 

More questions & no answers from me!!

 

tony

 

 

[Graf]

Hi Tony,

 

Very nice work

 

Other information for the Bulgarian Crosses that they were Made in Hungary but not proven

That made me think that those Decorations might have been made by non Austrian makers by request of the Austrian Firms and the mark "F" could be his mark  in addition of the Austrian marks

Yes more questions then answers, That is the purpose of those forums to try to get to an answer with the information and knowledge available to us

 

regards

Edited May 1, 2023 by Graf

[Carlo]

On 01/05/2023 at 04:26, Farkas said:

Hi Gents,

an interesting question that doesn’t seem to have an obvious answer despite there being pretty good information on here and the web about jewellers marks.

 

It is normal to see most official marks ‘boxed’ in, all the assay office punch marks & the ‘Frei’ mark are.

 

This F is not listed as a different registered makers mark and not the known GAS marks either.

 

In my hunt I did find reference to ‘scratch marks’, these are different to the jewellers maker mark, mostly just 1 or 2 letters and engraved (scratched) not stamped.

 

 

 

As there is no reason I can see for Scheid to use an F to represent GAS.

So I wondered if it may have been an individual craftsman mark… but the appearance of an F on both of the 2 Bulgarian Crosses 👇 presumably made by a different firm makes that most unlikely.

I also wondered if the F might be because the award was for a woman (F for female) though obviously that’s English not German…

but again the Bulgarian cross negates that because Its pretty likely it was for a man.

I did find one other GAS mark that is a silver mark, this has the letter Z 👇. Totally different in appearance but it must represent something 🤷‍♂️

and I found another Bulgarian Bravery order with the F on the same arm as the others 

 

My only other thought is there was a guy called Fraget who did just about all silver playing for years, is it possible he silver plated these medals?

🤷‍♂️

 

More questions & no answers from me!!

 

tony

 

 

An excellent research, which as you say leads to more questions than answers, but from a certain point of view it is an interesting part of the collector's "profession"!

[Graf]

On 05/05/2023 at 02:49, Carlo said:

An excellent research, which as you say leads to more questions than answers, but from a certain point of view it is an interesting part of the collector's "profession"!

Yes I agree

[Farkas]

Hi Gents,

I sometimes get a bit fixated…

especially when surely there must be an answer somewhere, the mark is not uncommon.

 

So I’ve kept looking on & off.

 

Recap first. (F mark)

- Not any known European makers mark.

- Not a craftsman/journeyman/batch mark (as always an F not variable)

- Not a hallmark.

- Used on a Bulgarian award.

- Used on a German made Austrian award.

 

So…

I have another observation, nothing I would definitely attribute to these marks but worth a mention maybe.

The Dutch had a dating system for their hallmarks. The chart is below. They used a letter F (though circled) for the year 1915…

 

• The Austrian Red Cross award and the Bulgarian Cross date there or thereabouts. (1914+ & 1915)

• I’m clutching at straws (it is gone 3am here in 🇬🇧 & I’m bit buzzed) and I have found nothing more to back this up but I’m wondering if this could indeed be a 1915 date stamp?
• The Dutch were neutral in ww1 but traded with Germany (at least) as I understand it. Could medal production, or parts of it, have been outsourced by certain government’s or individual makers to the neutral Netherlands? 🤷‍♂️
 

tony 🍻

Zzzz

 

 

 

 

[Carlo]

3 hours ago, Farkas said:

Hi Gents,

I sometimes get a bit fixated…

especially when surely there must be an answer somewhere, the mark is not uncommon.

 

So I’ve kept looking on & off.

 

Recap first. (F mark)

- Not any known European makers mark.

- Not a craftsman/journeyman/batch mark (as always an F not variable)

- Not a hallmark.

- Used on a Bulgarian award.

- Used on a German made Austrian award.

 

So…

I have another observation, nothing I would definitely attribute to these marks but worth a mention maybe.

The Dutch had a dating system for their hallmarks. The chart is below. They used a letter F (though circled) for the year 1915…

 

• The Austrian Red Cross award and the Bulgarian Cross date there or thereabouts. (1914+ & 1915)

• I’m clutching at straws (it is gone 3am here in 🇬🇧 & I’m bit buzzed) and I have found nothing more to back this up but I’m wondering if this could indeed be a 1915 date stamp?
• The Dutch were neutral in ww1 but traded with Germany (at least) as I understand it. Could medal production, or parts of it, have been outsourced by certain government’s or individual makers to the neutral Netherlands? 🤷‍♂️
 

tony 🍻

Zzzz

 

 

 

 

Interesting, at the moment I have no memory of Austrian date stamps, (maybe I'm wrong) but it could be.

Unfortunately, like other marks that are sometimes found on decorations, this one is not yet identified, like many others.

One thing I've noticed is that you often find unknown marks on the War Cross for Civil Merit and on the Karl trupprnkreuz.
This makes me think that having (along with the red cross decorations) been established near the end of the empire and having all been produced by numerous manufacturers due to high demand (especially the KTK and the red cross decorations) there was time to keep track of the manufactutrer.

Obviously this is my hypothesis, I'm certainly not the best expert in this sector, so all I can do is formulate hypotheses and discuss them with others.

But I think this is one of the beautiful things about collecting, together with: studying, researching and dealing with the most experienced collectors to expand your own knowledge.

[farmer]

On 29/04/2023 at 05:36, Graf said:

Interesting that "F" mark is used on the back of Bulgarian Order   a rare model 1915-1916 The Order was made in Austria

It is made by silvered brass

I will post the reverse with the mark later on

Just a note here, brass is not metal suitable for enameling so it is most likely on base copper or what enamelers call either gilding or enameling alloy (some call it enamel grade tombac or such - there are many names for such alloys). It needs to have under 5% of zinc in it's composition and regular brass has a lot more - which would render enameling very ugly or altogether ineffective. After the fact, it can be indeed silver plated or gold plated (gilded).

[Graf]

13 hours ago, farmer said:

Just a note here, brass is not metal suitable for enameling so it is most likely on base copper or what enamelers call either gilding or enameling alloy (some call it enamel grade tombac or such - there are many names for such alloys). It needs to have under 5% of zinc in it's composition and regular brass has a lot more - which would render enameling very ugly or altogether ineffective. After the fact, it can be indeed silver plated or gold plated (gilded).

Thank you

[Carlo]

On 02/10/2023 at 23:22, farmer said:

Just a note here, brass is not metal suitable for enameling so it is most likely on base copper or what enamelers call either gilding or enameling alloy (some call it enamel grade tombac or such - there are many names for such alloys). It needs to have under 5% of zinc in it's composition and regular brass has a lot more - which would render enameling very ugly or altogether ineffective. After the fact, it can be indeed silver plated or gold plated (gilded).

Interesting, I'll definitely keep that in mind.
I didn't post the photo, but this decoration has the Diana head mark of 900 silver, which makes sense as it was produced pre 1918 (I think)