W McSwiggan Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Hopefully better put?The Prussian KHHOX ? was it distributed to junior officers outside the celebrity class in a better fashion that the Orden Pour le M?rite? As stated before ? I find only 2 Infantry Officers below the grade of Major who received the Blue Max.Any information of the distribution of the KHHOX by rank and/or to non-Prussian contingents?My numbers for the PlmO show:Total Awards of 685 (per O?Connor)Army awards to Captain & below (Inf, Cav & Arty) of 70Army awards to Captain & below (Inf, Cav & Arty) of non-Prussian Units of 2KHHOXTotal Awards of 8291 (per O?Connor)Army awards to Captain & below (Inf, Cav & Arty) of ???Army awards to Captain & below (Inf, Cav & Arty) of non-Prussian Units of ???What I?m driving at is ? was your basic ground-doggie officer ? getting his butt shot off every day going to see a Hohenzollern if he wasn?t Prussian or was the best he could hope for from Prussia generally the EKI and whatever his home/unit state was prepared to award? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Yes-- the HHOX was the highest award ANY frontline Prussian officer could rationally hope to achieve. It was normally given for repeated acts of valor beyond that required for an EK1, and so equates (I know what you are thinking ) fairly directly-- even in numbers awarded, given the different lengths of the wars-- with the WW2 German Cross in Gold. In the case of General Staff officers, it even somewhat presaged the later German Cross in Silver when NOT for direct combat, but "leadership."It was fairly often, but unevenly, awarded on non-Prussian officers who were "over and beyond" and whose actions could somehow be stretched to assisting Prussian units. A Hohenzollern in any group is never the sort of lounge lizard junk that so many other awards were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W McSwiggan Posted May 24, 2005 Author Share Posted May 24, 2005 Rick,Hey - no mind reading! Very rude...Actually - I wasn't going there but an interesting thought & point.Nice bars!A little more help if you please. First bar is a little odd in order - would the owner be a Mecklenburger?Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W McSwiggan Posted May 24, 2005 Author Share Posted May 24, 2005 PS Rick - 2,3,7 & 8 have the look of typically well travelled General Staff officers.Do they ID as such?Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hunter Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Very classy bars Rick! :cat-smiley-025: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landsknechte Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 (edited) My lone HHOX contribution: Edited May 24, 2005 by landsknechte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 That was a random sample of "typical" HHOX bars from the Good Ricky Twin Collection:1) Oberst aD Friedrich Freiherr von Massenbach (b. 1867) was actually a Prussian BUT, as noted-- this is in "Mecklenburg Rules" precedence from when he was the commander of Mecklenburg's Fusilier Regiment 902) Hauptmann von Karmainsky of Feldart Regt 3 had no staff service according to the Honor Rank List, so these are pure artillery unit commander awards, signature combination to that regiment. He went on to be an Oberst (S) in the OKH in WW2.3) I thought I had this ID'd, but my prime suspect (Inf Rgt 47) should have had a long service, so unknown whose this was4) Luftwaffe Generalleutnant Ottfried Sattler (1886-1952) was a field artillery officer in WW1-- pure combat awards.5) Oberleutnant dR (Inf Rgt 83) Karl Stracke got this-- traceable from the double Waldecks and HHOX. Pure frontline infantry lieutenant.6) Konteradmiral zS zV Wilhelm Rhein (1887-1964) got these in WW1 as a U-boat commander.7) I suspect this belonged to later General der Infanterie Otto Hasse (1871-1942), a Pour le Merite with Oakleaves General Staff type. He also had a Hamburg hanseatic Cross, so this becomes a "which came first" question.Now, I was WRONG about "lounge lizard" HHOX awards. Most of them in 1915 were Imperial Headquarters flunkies.There were also-- perhaps surprisingly26 medical officers (6 in 1917 and 30 in 1918)and4 Feldwebelleutnants (!!!! 3 in 1917 and 1 in 1918)who received HHOXs.SOME of the medical officers may have gotten these as "staff" awards-- they were too senior in rank to have been regimental medical officers. Unfortunately, the Army Honor Rank List does NOT show commands for medical officers, so will never know.Except for the Lounge Lizard In Chief--Stabsarzt Dr. Wezel, 2nd "Body Physician" to the Kaiser. That pill dispensing entourage "worthy" got SWORDS to his non-sword HHO gazetted 19.7.17, and equally completely inappropriate Crown and Swords to his peacetime Red Eagle 4th gazetted 15.4.15. Granted, Orders were at the Kaiser's whim... but these were still ethically WRONG. Wezel-- whose first name never appears in any of the following rolls (which tells you how perfunctory they actually were) ALSO racked up at least the BZ3bXmE, BMVO4X, and SA3aX. Yeesh.Now, a much more INTERESTING exception as the one Feldwebelleutnant, Minte, who I CAN account for, from his regimental history. In Reserve Infantry Regiment 215, he was this rank by March 1916. A night trench raid 12/13 April 1917 that netted 14 French POWs and 2 captured machine guns led regimental commander Oberstleutnant Bonsack to nominate Minte for a HHOX-- note, NOT the Members' Cross, but the ORDER. Since Minte did not have the EK1 yet, that was approved instead-- on 2 May 1917. The regimental history derided that EK1 as "not enough." And so indeed, gazetted 14 August 1917 (delays in reporting awards ranged from days to never gazetted) was Minte's HHOX!!!! Contrary to all regulations!!!Minte was commissioned Leutnant der Landwehr on 5 September 1917 AFTER receiving the HHOX, and was alive at least through July 1918.Bremen's Infantry Regiment 75 actually printed the names and award dates for recipients of all decorations from the EK1 up--90 EK1s (5 of those "12.11.18")16 HHOXs (1 Otl, 2 Maj, 2 Hptm, 1 Hptm dR, 2 Oberlt, 4 Lt, 4 LtdR)5 Gold Military Merit Crosses2 Pour le Merite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Did you say "Dr. Weasel"???HHOX was still an extremely prestigious award during WW1. The typical Prussian precedence regs were there... must have EK2/EK1 to receive it. Just as it was the final stepping stone for achieving a PLM.I don't think it was a "given" that it was even on the table for most of the Jr. officers. Here's a selection of bravery bars from Saxony. Assuredly some officers in here, but no HHOX! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Hi Rick,Minte was commissioned Leutnant der Landwehr on 5 September 1917 AFTER receiving the HHOX, and was alive at least through July 1918.Leutnant der Landwehr Minte was killed on the 21st of July 1918 at Buzancv (Soissons).RegardsGlenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Typical... sad end to THAT story...but indicative of the sorts of wildly brave officers whose luck, after so many risks, almost inevitably ran out... as Minte's did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 I'll clarify for a second...... I didn't mean that they never received it... only that it was not awarded as frequently. An award that managed to maintain it's prestige throughout WW1...Multiple, repeated acts of bravery were required...... or shoot down a few planes, that always helped! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W McSwiggan Posted May 24, 2005 Author Share Posted May 24, 2005 "ALSO racked up at least the BZ3bXmE, BMVO4X, and SA3aX. Yeesh."What order is the "Yeesh"??? Great information and pix Rix - thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gregory Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 And what order is the "BZ3bXmE" for that matter? Is it something pretty from Baden? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landsknechte Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 And what order is the "BZ3bXmE" for that matter? Is it something pretty from Baden?←If I'm not mistaken: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Close but no ceegar. THAT is a "BZ3aXmE." 3a was the gold Knight 1st. 3b was the silver Knight 2nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landsknechte Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Close but no ceegar. THAT is a "BZ3aXmE." 3a was the gold Knight 1st. 3b was the silver Knight 2nd.←Doh. :speechless-smiley-004: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 I will confess..... that we get to a point with the rank abbreviations and my brain starts to tumble....... It's like the Frederick's Order, RK2 from W?rttemburg.... 2.kl. cross comes in a case marked FO3bX...... :speechless-smiley-004: :speechless-smiley-004: :speechless-smiley-004: Still drives me nuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gregory Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 My 1912 Prussian rank list is complete, except for the pages explaining the abbreviations for the awards. flame Until someone compiles a list for mere mortals such as I, these cryptic abbreviations will remain just that, I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Hi David, at the top of Imperial is a pinned thread that starts to dealve into just that topic. Take a peek, some answers can be found there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gregory Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Rick,Thanks for the tip (although I should have seen a pinned thread :speechless-smiley-004: ).Is there any particular reason why the thread has been closed?Thanks again,David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruelle Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Hi everybody, One of my ribbon bar with HHOX.RegardsChristophe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruelle Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 The reverse of the ribbon bar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Hi Rick,Except for the Lounge Lizard In Chief--Stabsarzt Dr. Wezel, 2nd "Body Physician" to the Kaiser. That pill dispensing entourage "worthy" got SWORDS to his non-sword HHO gazetted 19.7.17, and equally completely inappropriate Crown and Swords to his peacetime Red Eagle 4th gazetted 15.4.15. Granted, Orders were at the Kaiser's whim... but these were still ethically WRONG. Wezel-- whose first name never appears in any of the following rolls (which tells you how perfunctory they actually were) ALSO racked up at least the BZ3bXmE, BMVO4X, and SA3aX. Yeesh.Doktor Karl Wezel, born 5 July 1877 in Berlin. Attended the Kaiser-Wilhlem-Akademie f?r das milit?r?rztliche Bildungswesen from 20 October 1896 until 14 February 02. Qualified as a Doctor of Medicine on 20 June 1902 and commissioned as an Assistenzarzt on 12 Sep 02 B.RegardsGlenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Will so note in the innumerable rolls! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 And here is the great man - Stabsarzt Dr. Karl Wezel. Check out that chest RegardsGlenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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