EK 1939 Rudel or Goring?

[Edgar Estrada]

As far as I know the Knight Cross was made to bridge the gap between the Iron Cross First Class and the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross. Then it was add the Oak Leaves, Swords and finally the Diamonds on the Oak Leaves and Swords (And in the end the golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds), to the Knight Cross.

My first question is: Was the Grand Cross a higher award than the Knight Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds?

Who was the highest awarded soldier in WWII? Rudel or Goering?

Was the German Cross in Gold a requariment to win the Knight Cross? Some books say that the German Cross was an award to bridge the gap between the Iron Cross First Class and the Knight Cross and other that it was an independent award. What is true?

Was it harder to win the KC after the making of the German Cross as an award between the Iron Cross First Class and the KC?

Thanks for reading and for the answers.

Kind regards,

Edgar

[Guest Rick Research]

The Grand Cross was a carry over from 1870 and 1914 and was meant ONLY for top generals who had won a staggeringly significant victory or--in antique Napoleonic mode-- successfully defended or captured a major fortification. It was not awarded in WW1 for the latter category.

German Cross awards were completely separate from Knights Cross awards. Neither required the other. The Knight's Cross could be won as recognition for one major achievement over and beyond the level of bravery or merit required for an EK1, while the German Cross was much more a cumulative multiple award for many "same as EK1" level citations.

The confusion arises because the same awards were made for very different things. Keitel, Jodl, et al got Knights Crosses without ever leaving GHQ or hearing a shot fired. Luftwaffe aces and Uboat commanders on the other hand made "points" on THEIR victories, and so tended to amass a German Cross's "worth" before a Knight's Cross-- though not always so.

Obviously a Knight's Cross or German Cross to an Unteroffizier was a wildly different (and vastly more significant) award than one handed out to an elegantly attired staff lounge lizard for successful drawing of lines on a map. And it is difficult to compare the army with the navy or the air force, since the requirements were not consistent between the branches.

[ekhunter]

As far as I know the Knight Cross was made to bridge the gap between the Iron Cross First Class and the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross. Then it was add the Oak Leaves, Swords and finally the Diamonds on the Oak Leaves and Swords (And in the end the golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds), to the Knight Cross.

My first question is: Was the Grand Cross a higher award than the Knight Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds?

Who was the highest awarded soldier in WWII? Rudel or Goering?

Was the German Cross in Gold a requariment to win the Knight Cross? Some books say that the German Cross was an award to bridge the gap between the Iron Cross First Class and the Knight Cross and other that it was an independent award. What is true?

Was it harder to win the KC after the making of the German Cross as an award between the Iron Cross First Class and the KC?

Thanks for reading and for the answers.

Kind regards,

Edgar

My opinion is the Grand Cross is higher, and I think this is the way it was supposed to be in the hierarchy order. Had the war continued, some more os w/d in gold may have been awarded, but I doubt any more Grand Crosses would have been awarded.. If I recall correctly, only 7 Grand Crosses were awarded in WW I. Several more men than 7 were awarded the Pour le Merit. The Knight's Cross essentially took the place of the Pour Le Merit, and subsequent oakleaves, etc. To answer your other question, and once again my opinion, but it had to be Rudel. Goring earned his Grand Cross by his connections to Hitler, initial success from military campaigns that he planned, and his own reputation from the Great War (Pour le Merit). Rudel earned his on the battlefield. I think you ask anyone and they would say that what Rudel did, and how he did it, he had the respect of all, and earned it, unlike Goring. Lastly, you could win the Knight's Cross w/o recieving the German Cross.

[Robin Lumsden]

The bottom line is......the Grand Cross ranked higher than the RKs and all their add-ons, no matter how they were earned.

[joe campbell]

it is my understanding that goring got his

grand cross for the prosecution of the war

in the low countries, france , and poland.

he is not seen wearing it after the loss of

what is called "the battle of britain"

joe

[Douglas Jr.]

The bottom line is......the Grand Cross ranked higher than the RKs and all their add-ons, no matter how they were earned.

Hi,

I don?t know if I understood you correctly but I have seen several pictures of G?ring wearing his Grand Cross towards the end of war (including the day he surrendered to American troops in May, 1945).

Douglas.

[Christophe]

it is my understanding that goring got his

grand cross for the prosecution of the war

in the low countries, france , and poland.

he is not seen wearing it after the loss of

what is called "the battle of britain"

joe

Joe,

Goering has been awarded the Grand Cross on 19 july 1940, at a time his prestige was maximum.

Ch.

[Christophe]

Hi,

I don?t know if I understood you correctly but I have seen several pictures of G?ring wearing his Grand Cross towards the end of war (including the day he surrendered to American troops in May, 1945).

Douglas.

Doug,

Correct. He is seen wearing it at the moment of his surrender on 9 May 1945.

See pages 384-385 in Stephen Previtera's book "The Iron Time".

Ch.

[Christophe]

Pic of 1941, with Hanna Reitsch.

Ch.

[Christophe]

9 May 1945. Goering removes medals.

Ch.

[Edgar Estrada]

Thank you gentlemen for all the information. There is something that attracted my attention, it says:

?The confusion arises because the same awards were made for very different things. Keitel, Jodl, et al got Knights Crosses without ever leaving GHQ or hearing a shot fired. Luftwaffe aces and Uboat commanders on the other hand made "points" on THEIR victories, and so tended to amass a German Cross's "worth" before a Knight's Cross-- though not always so.?

When I watched the movie ?downfall? and I saw Keitel with Knight Cross, he got some respect from me (as a soldier); because I thought he got the award at the front. But without ever leaving GHQ or hearing a shot, how can it be possible? So my little respect for him is gone again. Why he and the others did not get the War Merit Cross instead of the Knight Cross?

Regards,

Edgar

[Daniel Murphy]

The Knights Cross in WW2 and the PLM in WW1 could BOTH be awarded for the successful planning and organization of operations during wartime. This is why they cannot be compared to the US Medal of Honour or the UK Victoria Cross which are for bravery above and beyond the call of duty. General staff officers that never fired a shot on the battlefield, but were very good at planning, could be and were awarded either the RK or the PLM depending on the war. It was felt that their contribution to the success of a battle was just as worthy as an officer that commanded the troops in the field. You must admit that given all other factors are the same, poor planning can lose a battle or excellent planning can win it. This has been proven countless times in a number of wars.

But without ever leaving GHQ or hearing a shot, how can it be possible? So my little respect for him is gone again.

I see no reason why you should not respect them all. They both did their jobs to the best of their ability. Without excellent staff officers, the best officers at the front would be unable to perform their jobs. True an officer at the front risks his life, while a staff officer would only be risking his career if he were a failure, but he also understands that the the fates of thousands of men are on his shoulders. In many ways he has more responsibility than an officer at the front. Do you think GFM Model ever fired a gun in anger during WW2? Maybe at a boar. Even a divisional commander at "the front" with his division would usually be miles behind the lines at his HQ most of the time.

Dan Murphy

Edited August 10, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Edgar Estrada]

The Knights Cross in WW2 and the PLM in WW1 could BOTH be awarded for the successful planning and organization of operations during wartime. This is why they cannot be compared to the US Medal of Honour or the UK Victoria Cross which are for bravery above and beyond the call of duty. General staff officers that never fired a shot on the battlefield, but were very good at planning, could be and were awarded either the RK or the PLM depending on the war. It was felt that their contribution to the success of a battle was just as worthy as an officer that commanded the troops in the field. You must admit that given all other factors are the same, poor planning can lose a battle or excellent planning can win it. This has been proven countless times in a number of wars.

I see no reason why you should not respect them all. They both did their jobs to the best of their ability. Without excellent staff officers, the best officers at the front would be unable to perform their jobs. True an officer at the front risks his life, while a staff officer would only be risking his career if he were a failure, but he also understands that the the fates of thousands of men are on his shoulders. In many ways he has more responsibility than an officer at the front. Do you think GFM Model ever fired a gun in anger during WW2? Maybe at a boar. Even a divisional commander at "the front" with his division would usually be miles behind the lines at his HQ most of the time.

Dan Murphy

Good point Dan, thanks. The thing is that what I know about Ketel in other fields makes me to dislike him. In my oppinion he has not comparation with Model, Guderian, Rommel, Donitz, etc.

And yes, it that way the RK has not comparation with the Victoria Cross (and I like it), and I read also in a book that the RK was given democratically to all soldiers no matter the rank or nationality (if they were fighting along with the Germans). I like that too.

I wish all the commanders undestand that the fates of thousands of men are on their hands, in that case I am sure there will be less wars today (or none at all). A lot of them (specially today), look like they do not care. They are safe in the rear, sitting on their desks while the troops are killed in the front. During WWII, I undestand that a lot of the generals were close enough to the front to know what the commoun soldier was facing (Zukhov, Guderial, Rommel, etc).

Any way, thanks for your point. IT is very good to know.

Long life to peace

Edgar

Edited August 14, 2006 by Edgar Estrada

[Tony J]

Just a few futher thoughts.

It's always been interesting to me that GeneralOberst Jodl wasn't awarded the KC and his Oakleaves until the last few weeks of the war. If memory serves me right I don't remember seeing a picture of him wearing either his KC or Oaks at the signing of the German surrender.

Goring's Grand Cross was in reconition of the great contributions that the Luftwaffe (Goring's creation) had in the fall of Poland and more importantly in the battle of France.

The Grand Cross superceeded any level of the Knight's Cross.

There were many German divisional commanders that lead at the front. Rommel, Guderian, von Manteuffel, von Pannwitz and Nehring are just a few that come to mind immediately. Many others paid with their lives for their proximity to the front lines as the war progressed.

Tony