Serbia F 117 A - Fragment of the tail-fin

[Christian Zulus]

F 117 A - Fragment of the tail-fin

Gentlemen,

After the last war NATO vs. YU in 1999 I got as a present this fragment of the tail-fin from the shot down F 117 A "Nighthawk". In the night of the 27th of march 1999 the incident happened over Serbia. The Yugslavian Airdefense managed by cleverness and rather simple means to destroy - at least - 3 "invisible" F 117 A: This one crashed in Serbia, one more in Bosnia and the third one could manage to get down at the Zagreb airport in Croatia, but was also completly ruined.

Here is a link with detailed (US) informations about the F 117 A and a lot of photographs:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-117.htm

Wikipedia about the F 117 A with detailed informations about the combat loss at the 27th of march 1999 in YU:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-117_Nighthawk

Wikipedia about the NATO-bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 - "Operation Allied Force":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NATO_bombing_in_Yugoslavia

Best regards & pozdrav

Christian

Fragment presenting the outside of the F 117 A tail-fin:

[Christian Zulus]

Fragment presenting the inside of the F 117 A tail-fin:

Edited January 3, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Christian Zulus]

BEFORE:

AFTER:

Shot down by the Yugoslav 3rd Battalion of the 250th Missile Brigade under the command of Col. Zolt?n Dani, equipped with the Isayev S-125 'Neva-M' (NATO designation SA-3 'Goa'). They downed F-117A serial number 82-806 with such a Neva-M missile.

Edited January 3, 2007 by Chairman

[Christian Zulus]

My fragment is from that part (foreground, left) of the downed F 117 A:

[Paul R]

According to the links you posted, only one was shot down and one was seriously damaged. Thankfully, the pilot ejected and was rescued.

[Nick]

After some thought I have decided to let this post remain, but I have removed some of the inappropriate and inflammatory remarks/smilies which I am sure were intended to make a political point and no doubt will have caused offence to some of our US members.

It is an interesting topic and one that merits discussion but for it to continue please stick to facts not anti american rhetoric.

[Christian Zulus]

According to the links you posted, only one was shot down and one was seriously damaged. Thankfully, the pilot ejected and was rescued.

Dear Paul,

according to sources from Russia, Greece (NATO-country!), Serbia, etc. the wreck of a third F 117 A was found close to the village of Bijeljina in Bosnia (RS).

The second F 117 A at the Zagreb airport was not "seriously" damaged, but completly damaged, so it had to be wrecked.

Best regards

Christian

[Riley1965]

Mr. Chairman,

I AM OUTRAGED THAT YOU WOULD ALLOW THIS THREAD TO REMAIN !!! I am a Veteran of the U.S. Air force and served during the operations in Yugoslavia as a medic. How dare Zulus Boast about his "Crown Jewel"!!! For the first time at this forum I am APPAULED by the governing body's INACTION to a thread PROUDLY posting a piece of an incident that put my fellow Airmen in jeopardy. PLEASE DELETE THIS THREAD!!! It is the ONLY MORAL thing to do.

Doc

[Christian Zulus]

After some thought I have decided to let this post remain, but I have removed some of the inappropriate and inflammatory remarks/smilies which I am sure were intended to make a political point and no doubt will have caused offence to some of our US members.

It is an interesting topic and one that merits discussion but for it to continue please stick to facts not anti american rhetoric.

Dear Nick,

many thanks for keeping this thread alive .

O.K., at GMIC are more members from the USA, than from Serbia, Russia or China - no doubt about this . You are right, my "cheeky-smily" was politically not correct .

But the fact is, that the US-Adminstration will take the F 117 A out of service, after the shortcomings at the "Allied Force"-campain 1999.

The problem with the F 117 A is, that as soon, as the "Nighthawk" opens the fuselage for bombing - you can see that at the attached painting "BEFORE:" -, the aircraft is somehow dedectable, if you have installed a system of three different radar stations, as the Serbs did. A rather simple method, but it worked, as the proof of it lies in the drawers of my orders & medals collection.

I do not want to offend GMIC-members of the US-Forces, but the F 117 A "Nighthawk" seems to me in active duty as problematic, as the F 104 "Starfighter" had been in the 1960s. The NATO-pilots of the german "Luftwaffe" called the F 104 "Widowmaker" and "Earth Nail". The F 104 was phased out by the US-Airforce after only 9 years in service. Here is a link with further informations about the F 104: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-104_Starfighter . So, if you compare the F 104 with the Soviet MiG 21, the Soviet aircraft outrated the US-plane in crucial points. There are some more examples of deficits & shortcomings in US-weapon systems in history, i.e. tanks in WW II.

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Mr. Chairman,

I AM OUTRAGED THAT YOU WOULD ALLOW THIS THREAD TO REMAIN !!! I am a Veteran of the U.S. Air force and served during the operations in Yugoslavia as a medic. How dare Zulus Boast about his "Crown Jewel"!!! For the first time at this forum I am APPAULED by the governing body's INACTION to a thread PROUDLY posting a piece of an incident that put my fellow Airmen in jeopardy. PLEASE DELETE THIS THREAD!!! It is the ONLY MORAL thing to do.

Doc

Dear Doc,

please cool down .

GMIC is not a platform of the US-Airforce or US-Army, but an international forum for medal collectors, phalerists and militaria collectors from all over the world.

The fact is, that some of the GMIC-members served in recent conflicts. Another fact is, that some of the GMIC-members served in the same conflict, but at different sides of the front.

So that rare coincidence happended right now with the NATO-YU conflict in 1999:

You served as a medic for the US-Forces and you have got your decorations.

I served at the so-called "Propaganda & Humanitarian Front" for Serbian Interests in Austria. My duty was to organize big humanitarian concerts (with a great number of artists from NATO-countries) against the bombing of Yugoslavia. I also got my decorations - the fragment of the F 117 was part of it.

Doc, you and me had been military opponents in spring 1999.

The US-Airforce destroyed a lot of our country and killed thousends of civilian people. The NATO had no legitimation from the UNO or from their own NATO-statutes to bomb Yugoslavia - that is a fact!

The Serbs shot down some airplanes. That has been their right, due to their duty of defending their country.

Such things use to happen in the course of wars .

The war is over for almost 8 years. Serbia will be member of the NATO-"Partnership for Peace", as you could read some weeks ago in the papers. Here at GMIC we have a lot of US-members and also some members from Serbia, who all behave in a civilized way, as you can see.

So, where is the problem?

The war is over!

Best regards

Christian

[Nick]

Doc

I though long and hard about this posting. I agree Mr Zulus has been crass and offensive with his remarks and he has received an official warning with regards his conduct. I thought I had deleted the offensive remarks but one escaped. It aslo has not escaped my notice what the motivation for the topic was and in all probability the sole purpose was to cause offence.

I decided to leave the topic in question because I felt the topic itself was of value and interest. If the topic does not get back on coursec or is further clouded by political motivation I will simply delete it.

[Riley1965]

Mr. Chairman,

I appreciate your attention to this topic. I have voiced my outrage and will discuss this no further. I have better things to do, like proof reading my book, rather than entering a back and forth arguement with Zulus. If it continues to be an issue PLEASE delete it.

Regards,

Doc

Edited January 3, 2007 by Riley1965

[Christian Zulus]

Please delete all threads & postings

If it continues to be an issue PLEASE delete it.

Regards,

Doc

Mr. Chairman,

Doc Riley,

excellent idea, Doc:

Please delete ALL my threads & postings at GMIC !

Your behaviour is unjust, ridiculous and offensive.

I am not motivated anymore to participate at GMIC, because it seems to me, to be more in a department of the US-Forces, than in an international and political NEUTRAL collectors club for militaria & decorations. Members of Non-NATO-nations do not have the same rights, as the others .

Best regards & good luck

Christian

Edited January 3, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Kev in Deva]

Gentlemen, if I may be so bold, with regards this thread:

As the topics being discussed here are about military history, and most of the time the discussion stays within the boundries as laid down by the owners of the site.

Point 1, I think its grossly unfair to say the site is only Pro USA, this forum is one of the best, mainly for keeping the political Bullshine out of the posts, and maintaing a neutural stance.

Point 2, such statements as "The US-Airforce destroyed a lot of our country and killed thousends of civilian people.

I feel are totaly unfounded, if you are gong to post figures, then please post factual amounts and sources.

Point 3, Wikepidea is not the Gospel when it comes to quoting "Facts and Figures" as it is too easily manipulated.

If you feel Mr. Zulus you have to leave the forum, then its your choice, as nobody here forces you to do anything except follow the clear rules of the forum.

And no, I am not pro anything, or anybody, I consider myself a student of military history.

Kevin in Deva.

[Bryan]

Dear Christian, please reconsider your proposition to leave this forum.

Your contributions have been so far very interesting and I would not like to see you leave like this. I understand your concerns toward this subject and I feel that such topics shouldn't be close, because it will always be important to show both side of one conflict.

I do not see the point why such a discussion should be close. If this topic has to be close, I guess that other topics like members showing proudly their war trophy from Iraq should be closed as well.

I guess that Doc and Christian failed to be neutral on this topic, because both were involved in this war, but I guess that Mr. Chairman goes too far by saying that ?the motivation for the topic was and in all probability the sole purpose was to cause offence

I just hope that everything will settle down and that we can discuss calmly this very unusual military collectibles!

[hunyadi]

Its an interesting methond in which they shot the F-117 down. Everything has and Achillies Heel in the end. I recal my father reveiewing data durng the Nam conflict in which the Navy decided to investigate damage on returning aricraft from combat missions. Damage was assessed and the Navy crunched the data to find means and averages of the damaged sections and then made the apropriate plans to 'harden' those sections of the plane(s). Made sense right? Till someone figured out that the damaged areas were not severe enough and the planes were making it back to the carrier / airfiled. Then some Navy officer asked the right question - why dont they harden those areas that were not hit as clearly those were the areas that were briging down the aricraft as those ones never made it home?

[Riley1965]

Mr. Zulus,

I DO NOT wish you to leave the forum. Yes, You and I have not agreed on many points and have at times had heated exchanges. However many of your posts are interesting and educational. This IS NOT a USA forum but a WORLD forum. That includes Vienna and you.

Doc

[Christophe]

I have not seen here all the posts, as most of them have been edited since their initial publication. So, difficult to make an opinion. 1st point.

All here, amongst them Christian, Doc and Nick (by alphabetical order) seem willing to cool the debate. That's a good thing and sign for the future. 2nd point.

Other Members here (amongst them myself) appreciate your contributions and inputs. 3rd point.

These points seem enough to me to think that this debate has now to be closed, and all Members here mentioned stay in the Forum to bring the better of their knowledge (which is wider than they can imagine...).

I propose this thread to be closed now.

Cheers.

Ch. (For the benefit of GMIC).

[Christian Zulus]

Mr. Zulus,

I DO NOT wish you to leave the forum. Yes, You and I have not agreed on many points and have at times had heated exchanges. However many of your posts are interesting and educational. This IS NOT a USA forum but a WORLD forum. That includes Vienna and you.

Doc

Dear Doc,

many thanks for your posting .

For almost 8 years the war is over, where we participated at different sides of the front. Now Serbia will join NATO's "PfP" - as Austria already did - and you and I should reach our hands over the old trenches .

Where had you been located during the operation "Allied Force" in 1999? Which decoration did you get - the NATO-YU-Medal?

I got a large document from the Yugoslav Government for my achievements at the "Propaganda & Humanitarian Front" + that fragment of the F 117 A, which is something very special.

As the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia doesen't exist anymore and the war of 1999 is history.

I appreciate very much your phaleristic achievements in researching the Order of the Red Star and your contributions to GMIC .

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

I guess that Doc and Christian failed to be neutral on this topic, because both were involved in this war, but I guess that Mr. Chairman goes too far by saying that ?the motivation for the topic was and in all probability the sole purpose was to cause offence

I just hope that everything will settle down and that we can discuss calmly this very unusual military collectibles!

Dear Soviet,

many thanks for your contribution .

I did NOT want to cause offence to anyone, but to show an extremly rare military collectible. As far, as I know, the F 117 A - and parts of the plane - are still absolutly TOP SECRET. So, I thought, that the presentation of a part of the skin of a genuine & authentic "Nighthawk" might be of interest to the members of GMIC.

The black outside skin of the F 117 A touches very cold - like metal. The inside consits - as you can see - from rather strange carbon fabrics. But I am not an expert in that topic .

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

I have not seen here all the posts, as most of them have been edited since their initial publication. So, difficult to make an opinion. 1st point.

Ch. (For the benefit of GMIC).

Dear Christophe,

many thanks for your contribution .

Mr. Chairman's censorship was not so "rigid":

Nick delated the - smiley at the beginning of the thread (that smiley should document, that I am very proud of my rare military collectible - and nothing more!), a short remark, where I pointed out, that the defense industry in the USA made their money, but delivered inapprobriate weapon systems - F 117 A - to the US-Airforce for the campain against Yugoslavia + - smiley at the end of that sentence and a very short remark, where I said, that Col. Zolt?n Dani (YU-citizen of Hungarian origin!), as the commander of the rocket-battalion, did an excellent job (by military terms!).

O.K., GMIC is the private & legal property of Nick and he can do, what he want to do, but I don't think, that my postings had been an "real" offence to anyone, except to the people, who sent the F 117 A to Yugoslavia in 1999 . From the military viewpoint: The F 117 A does an excellent job in the Middle East - Iraq & Afghanistan -, but the VJ in 1999 had been still one of the strongest, best trained and best organized armies in the world.

I already sent a PM to Nick, where I showed understanding for his mild censorship, due to the fact, that GMIC has more members from the USA - or other NATO-countries -, than from Serbia, Russia, China, etc. and thanked him for not deleting my thread completly.

Best regards

Christian

Before this thread might be closed, here is an authentic photograph of the rockets of the 250th Missile Brigade:

Edited January 4, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Christian Zulus]

Point 2, such statements as "The US-Airforce destroyed a lot of our country and killed thousends of civilian people.

I feel are totaly unfounded, if you are gong to post figures, then please post factual amounts and sources.

Point 3, Wikepidea is not the Gospel when it comes to quoting "Facts and Figures" as it is too easily manipulated.

Dear Mr. "Kevin in Deva",

many thanks for your remarks, but if you regard yourself as a "student of military history", please study the history of the operation "Allied Force" of 1999 - many thanks .

BTW: You will find a lot of material and a lot of open sources (also NATO & US!) in the internet.

Best regards

Christian

[Wild Card]

Dear Christian,

I must admit that I am still trying to figure out what the original point of this thread really was. I do think that if you can take a step back and view it all objectively, that you will understand the subsequent reaction(s).

At any rate, I for one will miss your expertise and thank you for your many past contributions.

Wild Card

[Kev in Deva]

Dear Mr. "Kevin in Deva",

many thanks for your remarks, but if you regard yourself as a "student of military history", please study the history of the operation "Allied Force" of 1999 - many thanks .

BTW: You will find a lot of material and a lot of open sources (also NATO & US!) in the internet.

Best regards

Christian

Dear Sir,

I stand by what I posted, when you post such as "The US-Airforce destroyed a lot of our country and killed thousends of civilian people." I would like to see you as the original poster of the thread provide some concrete figures to back up your claim, you could have posted the words "many" or "hundreds" or even "hundreds of thousands".

As its you making the claim the responsibility lies with you to back it up, and not merely pass it off with a"BTW: You will find a lot of material and a lot of open sources (also NATO & US!) in the internet." I have more to do than search for info to back up your claims.

Post with such claims are highly irresponsible and eventualy lead to such heated exchanges as we have witnessed here, and the type of exchange which are all to common on some of the lesser controled forums on the net.

yours,

Kevin A. Ryan (Kev in Deva)

Edited January 4, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[slava1stclass]

Dear Sir,

I stand by what I posted, when you post such as "The US-Airforce destroyed a lot of our country and killed thousends of civilian people." I would like to see you as the original poster of the thread provide some concrete figures to back up your claim, you could have posted the words "many" or "hundreds" or even "hundreds of thousands".

As its you making the claim the responsibility lies with you to back it up, and not merely pass it off with a"BTW: You will find a lot of material and a lot of open sources (also NATO & US!) in the internet." I have more to do than search for info to back up your claims.

Post with such claims are highly irresponsible and eventualy lead to such heated exchanges as we have witnessed here, and the type of exchange which are all to common on some of the lesser controled forums on the net.

yours,

Kevin A. Ryan (Kev in Deva)

To all:

Kevin is spot on. One thing we know with certainty, however, is that historians can put a figure on the number of unarmed Bosnian Muslim boys and men massacred by the Bosnian Serbs at Srebrenica.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited January 4, 2007 by slava1stclass