Kriegsmarine Unmarked U-Boot badge

[KM-SPAIN]

I have found this u-boot unmarked badge yesterday, it has a fabrication error in the head an looks like it was a impuruty in the materila.

I would like to hear your opinions about it.

Thnaks in advance.

[KM-SPAIN]

Back side and head detail.

Edited October 1, 2007 by KM-SPAIN

[Michel]

Seems to be an original Schwerin.

[nesredep]

Seems to be an original Schwerin.

Hi

I agree.

Best regards

Nesredep

[SICHERHEITSDIENTS]

Hi

I agree.

Best regards

hi

anbody can tell me if an u boat schwerin like this with hinge block reversed was more uncommon than not hinge block reversed,wich of them were used earlier or both were used at same time,the most schwerin u boat i saw were hinge block not reversed,

thanks

Nesredep

[John R]

I do not agree that this badge is an unmarked Schwerin.

The possiblility exists that the "long pin" unmarked tombak U-boat badge, recognized also by the silvered looking pin and upside down hinge, was actually made by Steinhauer. This is based on the drawings in the Steinhauer catalog that look like the Schwerin obverse but has the long round tail sticking down below the wreath. It is circumstantial, but no Steinhauer U-boat badge has appeared, and, it might be because we have labled this unmarked varient a Schwerin. The other Schwerins that are unmarked have the normal Schwerin reverse hardware; so you should remember in any case that there are two unmarked tombak Schwerin type tombak U-boat badges in addition to the marked ones., meaning two different catches, wire and flat. John

Edited January 19, 2009 by John Robinson

[Gordon Williamson]

Though it is clearly 100% original wartime, I am far from convinced that this is a Schwerin badge.

Looks more like Steinhauer to me.

Of course it is possible that Schwerin struck the badge blanks and supplied them to Steinhauer who added their own fittings. The illustration in the Steinhauer catalogue shows a Schwerin "type" badge but with the tip of the pin extending down well below the edge of the badge, just like this, and something that would certainly be produced by mounting the hinge this way.

(John, we were both posting at the same time. I agree with you 100%)

I would personally much rather have one of these with a pin set up not often seen ( even if the Steinhauer theory is unproven) than a "normal" Schwerin badge, which by any standards is a pretty common piece.

[SICHERHEITSDIENTS]

Seems to be an original Schwerin.

hi michel

you posted seems to be an original schwerin,well,what do you think about the others members who stated the badge seem to them as S&L,i think finally is imposible to determinate if schwerin or S&L

thanks

fernando

[Martin W]

I have one of these badges myself and it has been discussed here.Personally i am "up in the air" as to whether it is a Schwerin or a Steinhauer & Luch.When you look at the illustration in the S & L catalog,one could agree that it is the Latter.

I think that until a marked example by S & L shows up,most will still think this badge as a late tombak Schwerin,with upside down hinge?

Regards,Martin.

[Gordon Williamson]

Here is a comparison shot with the badge in this thread shown alongside the Steinhauer catalogue illustration.

[Gordon Williamson]

Now look at the pin shapes from the reverse side.

Its not just a case of the length of the pin, but its shape. The typical Schwerin pin has its widest part near the top. The other pin has its widest part more centrally positioned.

Now compare with the Steinhauer catalogue illustration. You can clearly see from the outline profile of the pin where visible that the pin on the S&L badge has its widest part in the centre - just like the badge in this thread - and not at the top like a Schwerin pin.

I'm quite prepared to believe that the badges themselves may have been struck by Schwerin, as blanks without fittings, and sold to S&L who added their own hardware. This kind of "sharing" is well known from other awards.

One thing is sure, the badge in the catalogue offered by S&L is a Schwerin "type" badge, and the appearance of the pin ( its curvature and the excessive length) would be produced by exactly the type of pin on the badge in this thread.

To me, there is more circumstantial evidence for this type being S&L, than Schwerin.

Quite sad really, that a firm like S&L would chose to produce such a pig-ugly U-Boat Badge as the hideous Schwerin type.

Either way, personally, I'd be much happier to have a rare S&L badge than a common Schwerin.

[SICHERHEITSDIENTS]

Now look at the pin shapes from the reverse side.

Its not just a case of the length of the pin, but its shape. The typical Schwerin pin has its widest part near the top. The other pin has its widest part more centrally positioned.

Now compare with the Steinhauer catalogue illustration. You can clearly see from the outline profile of the pin where visible that the pin on the S&L badge has its widest part in the centre - just like the badge in this thread - and not at the top like a Schwerin pin.

I'm quite prepared to believe that the badges themselves may have been struck by Schwerin, as blanks without fittings, and sold to S&L who added their own hardware. This kind of "sharing" is well known from other awards.

One thing is sure, the badge in the catalogue offered by S&L is a Schwerin "type" badge, and the appearance of the pin ( its curvature and the excessive length) would be produced by exactly the type of pin on the badge in this thread.

To me, there is more circumstantial evidence for this type being S&L, than Schwerin.

Quite sad really, that a firm like S&L would chose to produce such a pig-ugly U-Boat Badge as the hideous Schwerin type.

Either way, personally, I'd be much happier to have a rare S&L badge than a common Schwerin.

you are right gordon,im more happy to have a S&L uboat badge than a Schwerin although i will never know the real true,many thanks for your kindly responses

fernando

[Martin W]

Hi Gordon,

you have put forward some interesting points that lean in the favor of S & L providing the reverse hardware,i think.Here is the one that i have again for comparison.

Regards,Martin.

Edited January 20, 2009 by mwestley

[Martin W]

The reverse.

[Gordon Williamson]

Nice one Martin, and again fits the bill perfectly for what an S&L would look like.

Its no secret that I don't like the Schwerin U-Boat badge. Horrible things. The only thing that would persuade me to buy one of this type, would be to get one with the "S&L type" pin. That, I would buy. A true Schwerin, I wouldn't want.

[nesredep]

The reverse.

Hello!

Nice S&L.

All the best

Nesredep

[Gordon Williamson]

The other interesting questions of course, for those who believe these are Schwerin, is - Where are the S&L badges ?

We have a period Steinhauer catalogue which shows three KM badges, - Minesweeper, U-Boat and Destroyer.

S&L Destroyer badges are well known as are the Minesweepers. Yet, no one has ever been able to produce a verified U-Boat badges. Why?

So, what is the answer ?

1. S&L illustrated a U-Boat badge in their catalogue but never actually had them - unlikely.

2. S&L manufactured a U-Boat badge , but different in appearance to the one in the catalogue - unlikely considering the high level of visual

accuracy for which S&L catalogue illustrations are known.

3. The unmarked Schwerin "type" badge which matches the catalogue illustration not only in appearance but in fittings (which do not match

other Schwerin pieces) IS actually an S&L.

I know which option makes sense to me

So, despite having all the requirements for a match to the one in the catalogue, if this type is not the one in the S&L catalogue, where are all the S&L U-Boat badges ? Abducted by aliens ?

One could argue about die characteristics etc but this would be meaningless, if - as suggested- the blanks were stamped by Schwerin and sold to S&L who added their own hardware. Then of course they would have an identical obverse to the true Schwerin badges as the hardware is the only thing that differentiates these from the normal Schwerin.

So the question again, if not this type - where did all the S&L badges disappear to ?

[John R]

George Stimson just posted this badge on WAF, marked. Trying to get a closeup of the makers mark. John

Edited January 22, 2009 by John Robinson

[John R]

Now, to compare the small and large fonts of the Schwerin badge with this example. The two on the left are from the two known fonts used by Schwerin, the one on the right from the badge just posted.

They do not match, however, this does not necessarily mean it is not Schwerin of course. Just another element of the discussion. John

[Gordon Williamson]

Hi John,

Certain lends credence to the theory of Schwerin making the actual planchettes.

Still doesn't rule out the unmarked examples being made by Schwerin and supplied to S&L.

Plus of course it doesn't answer the question of "where are the S&L U-Boat badges if they aren't the unmarked examples of this type".

It is inconceivable to me that there is yet another "Schwerin type" out there as retailed by Steinhauer of which none has ever surfaced.

Everyone seems to be fixated on Schwerin and the question of "where are the S&Ls" had become the "Elephant in the Room" that many just want to ignore.

[John R]

Part of the problem is that most collectors want to own a Schwerin and not a S&L I think and the badge at the top of the thread was sold as a Schwerin. Not the fault of the seller or the buyer since here we are, still discussing in great detail the badge.

So if you want what has been deemed to be the cadillac (do they still make these) of badges, you do not want to accept that what you have might be something else--or at least it is not a welcome discussion.

While the Schwerin design, as you have stated, left a lot to be desired in regards to the eagle head, if you wish to be generous to the badge while insulting eagles, I think on the uniform the Schwerin finish looked the best. I am not sure many of the wearers of the badge noticed anything since they did not blow the badge up to fill a computer screen of course. The Schwerin just glistens in quality and when on the dark blue service dress uniforms, it stands out in comparison to most other badges. Of course, the Hymenn style badge is great also as are others, but in general, Schwerin made a great badge in quality, if not always in design.

To restate what has been said elsewhere and known to those that study the Schwerin series of U-boat badge, there are some other points of note. The smaller maker mark is only found on the later thicker neck badges with the square hook. Also there is a distinct difference between the top of the eagles wings on the early rouund wire and later square wire badges. This is that the top of the wing has a frosted finish on the earlier and a burnished finish on the later. You will find that the later burnished top of wing is more pronouced indicating that the die was slightly worked out. The early frosted wing in more flat, with almost a concave appearance.

In the end, this thread is a great example of a forum working as it should. It is a discussion, not a debate, and once all the information is on the table so to speak, it is up to the collector to make a judgement call and make up their own mind on the artifact they possess or might possess.

I think Fernando's attitude is the correct one and I am glad he is happy with KM-Spain's badge as a period example no matter who made it.

John

Edited January 22, 2009 by John Robinson

[John R]

Gordon,

I do have an observation about this image though. If you take the right badge and flip the hinge upside down, the wide part goes up and into the left hand badge position I think.

What do you think?

John

[Gordon Williamson]

No, I don't think so John. Ignore the hinge and just look at the pin itself. The bulge is definitely nearer to the top on the Schwerin example, and in the centre on the other.

Just to be clear though, I can happily accept Schwerin actually making the basic badge stamping. I would still contend that, these unmarked examples being a match for the S&L catalogue piece, that that is most probably what they are, badges retailed by S&L, whether or not it was actually Schwerin who stamped them out.

The same sort of situation exists with the Mayer / Zimmermann / Schickle U-Boat badges. All bear identical obverse die characteristics only the pin fittings ( and fretting out of the Swas) differ. It is perfectly possible that only ONE of these firms actually stamped out the badge and sold blanks to the others for finishing. Unmarked Mayer and Zimmermann U-Boat badges are confused often enough even with the visible difference in the Swas. The same situation could easily exist between Schwerin and S&L.

[SICHERHEITSDIENTS]

Part of the problem is that most collectors want to own a Schwerin and not a S&L I think and the badge at the top of the thread was sold as a Schwerin. Not the fault of the seller or the buyer since here we are, still discussing in great detail the badge.

So if you want what has been deemed to be the cadillac (do they still make these) of badges, you do not want to accept that what you have might be something else--or at least it is not a welcome discussion.

While the Schwerin design, as you have stated, left a lot to be desired in regards to the eagle head, if you wish to be generous to the badge while insulting eagles, I think on the uniform the Schwerin finish looked the best. I am not sure many of the wearers of the badge noticed anything since they did not blow the badge up to fill a computer screen of course. The Schwerin just glistens in quality and when on the dark blue service dress uniforms, it stands out in comparison to most other badges. Of course, the Hymenn style badge is great also as are others, but in general, Schwerin made a great badge in quality, if not always in design.

To restate what has been said elsewhere and known to those that study the Schwerin series of U-boat badge, there are some other points of note. The smaller maker mark is only found on the later thicker neck badges with the square hook. Also there is a distinct difference between the top of the eagles wings on the early rouund wire and later square wire badges. This is that the top of the wing has a frosted finish on the earlier and a burnished finish on the later. You will find that the later burnished top of wing is more pronouced indicating that the die was slightly worked out. The early frosted wing in more flat, with almost a concave appearance.

In the end, this thread is a great example of a forum working as it should. It is a discussion, not a debate, and once all the information is on the table so to speak, it is up to the collector to make a judgement call and make up their own mind on the artifact they possess or might possess.

I think Fernando's attitude is the correct one and I am glad he is happy with KM-Spain's badge as a period example no matter who made it.

John

i agree john,im happy with the badge and i dont mind if is schwerin or S&L,this one is my first and only one u boat badge,and it is the most important thing to me,but all these discussions do this forum a great place for the collectors learn about,many thanks,for all,and my only hopeless is not resolve beetween schwerin and S&L but purchasing more km badges,at the moment i have a nice assmann minesweeper badge and this schwerin or S&L,both purchases from my friend and great collector KM-SPAIN,thanks to him too.

[John R]

i agree john,im happy with the badge and i dont mind if is schwerin or S&L,this one is my first and only one u boat badge,and it is the most important thing to me,but all these discussions do this forum a great place for the collectors learn about,many thanks,for all,and my only hopeless is not resolve beetween schwerin and S&L but purchasing more km badges,at the moment i have a nice assmann minesweeper badge and this schwerin or S&L,both purchases from my friend and great collector KM-SPAIN,thanks to him too.

Good to hear that. I thought I had a Hymenn badge for years until it was revealed it was not a Hymenn badge afterall. The hobby evolves and we do not know everything yet and probably never will.

Another example is the Schwerin Berlin stamp on the back of some "juncker" type badges. Could be worse, most countries do not mark their badges and awards at all so know way you know who made it. You just try to make sure it is real, that is all.

Could you do us a favor though: Please give us the height and width, thickness and weight and wingspan when you get the chance. I do not think it is going to reveal anything in particular, but nice to have.

John