Christian Zulus Posted March 11, 2008 Posted March 11, 2008 Kutuzov 2nd class, Type 2 / Version 2, s/n. 274Gentlemen,in summer 1994 I bought for EUR 580,- this Kutuzov 2cl at my main dealer in Vienna. This Kutuzov has a s/n. of on old and early version and the s/n. 274 has been engraved new, the old one had been scratched out (in a rather crude way) and also the (orginal) "gun blue" at the rv. has been applied. The same dealer offered also a nice Suvorov 2cl for about EUR 900,-, but with an completly scratched out s/n., which I didn't buy - no s/n. + higher price.The Kutuzov is original & genuine. Has true traces of wear, excellent enamel, correct weight, perfectly manufactured, old patina, the typical old dust in the corners and a small (and old!) chip at the white enamel at "33-minutes-position", as you can see at my (bad ) scans. Dietrich Herfurth tried to research the order, but he got negative results from Podolsk - the Soviet Army has no Kutuzov 2cl with s/n. 274 in their archives. Dr. Herfurth meant, that it might be a "Victory Parade" r.i. NKVD-award .Another theory might be, that the Kutuzov is stolen (or "sold") from a museum and the "experts" engraved a new s/n., which is not recorded at Podolsk, so that the award can't be tracked .What's your opinion about this Kutuzov 2cl - many thanks for your expertise .Best regards Christian
Bryan Posted March 11, 2008 Posted March 11, 2008 Christian, can you get a better shot from the srial number? I'm wondering why the damage was done only were the seril number is.
Lapa Posted March 11, 2008 Posted March 11, 2008 Christian,SN 274 corresponds to a suspension, no stickpin order. Yours, as you mentioned is of the latest type (SN 1508-3653).I do not understand the reference to the Victory Parade. This would not have an impact on whether the order can be researched or not. There were many participants, and collectors own researched orders and/or groups that could be researched.The erasing of the number is definitely not the work of the Mint. All erasing was carefully and professionally done. Here, some highly unqualified "tradesman" was at hand I'd love to have a good look at your order, so I'll second Bryan in his request for better pictures/scans of the front, back and edge, with nice close-ups on Kutuzov's head, the crenelated wall and the mintmark.Marc
Ed_Haynes Posted March 11, 2008 Posted March 11, 2008 Yes . . . This one looks troublesome and needs good scans. Or more . . . .
Christian Zulus Posted March 12, 2008 Author Posted March 12, 2008 Dear Marc,many thanks for your expertise .If it is correct, that the Moscow Mint didn't erase the s/n. for "Victory Parade" reissues in such a crude way, then the version, that my Kutuzov 2cl found it's was to the West from a Russian museum, seems to be the most credible one.I have seen some high-ranking Soviet orders (mostly Lenins) with rather crude erased s/n. in the mid 1990s here in Vienna. The ident dealer offered at the same time (1994) also an immaculate & genuine Suvorov 1cl with the typical "museum"-engraving at the rv., instead of a s/n., for about EUR 2.900,-. At the moment the prices for a Suvorov 1cl are a bit higher .Dr. Herfurth got negative results concerning the s/n. from Podolsk. So his theory was, that the Kutuzov 2cl (as a most typical award to high ranking NKVD-officers, due to the operations of the NKVD during the GPW) might have been awarded to a NKVD-General, who got a ri. for participating at the "Victory Parade".Best regards ChristianChristian,SN 274 corresponds to a suspension, no stickpin order. Yours, as you mentioned is of the latest type (SN 1508-3653).I do not understand the reference to the Victory Parade. This would not have an impact on whether the order can be researched or not. There were many participants, and collectors own researched orders and/or groups that could be researched.The erasing of the number is definitely not the work of the Mint. All erasing was carefully and professionally done. Here, some highly unqualified "tradesman" was at hand I'd love to have a good look at your order, so I'll second Bryan in his request for better pictures/scans of the front, back and edge, with nice close-ups on Kutuzov's head, the crenelated wall and the mintmark.Marc
Christian Zulus Posted March 12, 2008 Author Posted March 12, 2008 Christian, can you get a better shot from the srial number? I'm wondering why the damage was done only were the seril number is.Dear Bryan,sorry ... , I just took the Kutuzov 2cl out of my bank fault, when I made the final photographs of my RBL-screwback http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=25331 and of the two Motherlands 2cl http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=25540 . I made the pics with my Sony-phone, but the focus didn't work correctly at the Kutuzov . I will borrow a decent camera and will make some close-ups of the details the coming days.Best regards Christian
Christian Zulus Posted March 12, 2008 Author Posted March 12, 2008 This one looks troublesome and needs good scans. Or more . . . .Dear Ed,this Kutuzov 2cl is authentic & genuine .The only aspect, which is really troublesome, is the scratched out and newly engraved s/n. .Best regards Christian
Ed_Haynes Posted March 12, 2008 Posted March 12, 2008 Yeah, in the early days, whatever came out of the USSR usually had the serial numbers scratched out, sometimes pretty deeply gouged out. I recall, at the first OMSA I attended in 1976, that there were some shifty looking types making the rounds of tables in the bourse, jotting down the serial numbers of the few Soviet awards that were for sale that still had legible numbers. Surprisingly, they weren't buying them up or demanding their return (as Putin's mob does these days), just recording the numbers. I always wonder what happened to the recipients and/or their families. The other possibility, of course, is the one you raise that it is a less-than-kosher museum "escapee". In essence, that it is stolen goods . . . .The added serial number would seem to just be a fraudulent addition, an effort to restore some value to the piece.
Christian Zulus Posted October 15, 2008 Author Posted October 15, 2008 Some better pics of my Kutuzov 2cl ...
Christian Zulus Posted October 15, 2008 Author Posted October 15, 2008 (edited) Gentlemen,what's your opinion about this outstanding beauty ?Many thanks for your expertise .Best regards ChristianBTW: Igor has a rather ident item for sale - mere 48k bucks ... http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=19515 Edited October 15, 2008 by Christian Zulus
Ed_Haynes Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Serial number? In relation to screw post and mint mark??The "muddy" screw post area is not -- to me - a positive sign.The images "at an angle" inspire nothing but negativity (to me, at least).
Christian Zulus Posted October 15, 2008 Author Posted October 15, 2008 Serial number? In relation to screw post and mint mark??The "muddy" screw post area is not -- to me - a positive sign.The images "at an angle" inspire nothing but negativity (to me, at least).Dear Ed,many thanks for your prompt remarks .The position of the s/n. is absolutly correct for that version.There is nothing "muddy" around the screw post - just some patina ...If you compare my images "at an angle" to Igor's ones, than you will see the difference in quality of manufacture ... What's your point ?Listen, the forger in Eastern Europe in 1993 would had been a complete stupid guy, to invest weeks of work to create a "genuine" Kutuzov, instead of casting some RB screwbacks or strucking some Nakhimov Medals . At those "glorious" days (1993-95) the price gap between a RB screwback, Nakhimov Medal and a Kutuzov 2cl wasn't that big: 3 RB screwbacks or Nakhimov Medals against 1 Kutzov 2cl. So, where is the business concept ... BTW: If you look at the patina (specially on the enamel), at the red colour of the tiny star, at the chip, at the nicks on the silver, at the quality of manufacture etc. etc. - these are realities, you can hardly fake, I guess.Best regards Christian
JimZ Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Christian,Stop being so defensive if you want to have proper discussion with fellow collectors - just submit a proper clear focussed shot of the reverse. At the moment your arguments seem too petulent and are hardly conducive to a serious dicussion between collectors. Keeping an open mind is what helps people move on in collecting, and when needs be, learning from others who at times may know better. If you do want real constructive feedback then please try to listen to what other collectors are trying to point out or ask for instead of trying to convince them of your arguments when you have not even posted the most important picture of the reverse! Regards,Jim
Christian Zulus Posted October 16, 2008 Author Posted October 16, 2008 Dear Jim,many thanks for your commentary .Two more pics of the reverse.BTW: The part of the rv. around the s/n. is not "blue", as seen at the second pic, that was just a reflection of light. The back is in a homogenious "gun blue".Best regards Christian
JimZ Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Abit more clear now! Well done ..... Gentlemen... your comments.....
seb16trs Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Christian,Stop being so defensive if you want to have proper discussion with fellow collectors - just submit a proper clear focussed shot of the reverse. At the moment your arguments seem too petulent and are hardly conducive to a serious dicussion between collectors. Keeping an open mind is what helps people move on in collecting, and when needs be, learning from others who at times may know better. If you do want real constructive feedback then please try to listen to what other collectors are trying to point out or ask for instead of trying to convince them of your arguments when you have not even posted the most important picture of the reverse! Regards,Jimi second this opinion. And please bear in mind there were already good fakers in 1993 (PMD's book dates from 1995 and he didn't establish his statistics observations within 2 months, so faking problem didn't burst in only one or two years). There were already a collector market in the soviet union years...and consequently a fake market
oleg Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 The serial number does not belong to this variation. Plus it looks fake. I can suggest that the original owner erased it. That can explain the scratches on the back. I need better pics in order to tell the authenticity of the order.
Christian Zulus Posted October 17, 2008 Author Posted October 17, 2008 The serial number does not belong to this variation. Plus it looks fake. I can suggest that the original owner erased it. That can explain the scratches on the back. I need better pics in order to tell the authenticity of the order.Dear Oleg,have a look at the initial posting by me at the beginning of this thread, that's what I am thinking too.Sorry, these are the best pics I shot .... If it helps, I might send the original photographs - much more KB - to you via E-Mail ?Best regardsChristian
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