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I saw a British Vic Medal to an Indian Halvidar in an antique shop this weekend, but was concerned that it felt "lighter" than other Brit Vic's in my collection. It didn't have a nice "heft" and seemed detail seemed "thin" on the obverse side. Were Vic's to the Indian Army made differently than others?

Also, the unit was engraved I.G.A - I thought this might be Indian Garrison Artillery, but when checking unit abbrev's on the UK Archives site, no such abbrev was listed.

Any thoughts from the Vic Medal experts?

(cross posted from UK forum)

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I saw a British Vic Medal to an Indian Halvidar in an antique shop this weekend, but was concerned that it felt "lighter" than other Brit Vic's in my collection. It didn't have a nice "heft" and seemed detail seemed "thin" on the obverse side. Were Vic's to the Indian Army made differently than others?

Hello IrishGunner,

While there are noticeable differences in the Indian produced War medal things are a bit more difficult with the vics.

Opinion is divided as to whether or not it is confirmed that the vic was even produced in India. Some collectors believe this was the case whereas others believe they were all produced in England and shipped to India. A lack of access to surviving records in India compounds the problem.

The only qualifiying comment I can make is that some vics in Indian groups do indeed appear to have a weaker strike compared to those in UK groups. This is, of course, not conclusive.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW

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Thanks for the reply, Rob.

Of course, who would fake an Indian Army Vic and sell it in an antique shop in Pennsylvania, USA for next to nothing? :P Strangely enough, it had a WWII US Victory Medal ribbon attached. I'll be back in that area in 3 weeks, might just go ahead and buy it (if it's still there) just for the sake of argument.

The name and Regt # turned up one MIC that listed him as a Gunner in the Royal Artillery and a Pack Battery.

Edited by IrishGunner

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Since there is a seperate thread away from the UK thread for South Africa Vic's, I thought, I'd re-title this one and we can start a record of Indian Army Vic's. One reason, this might be useful, is to better understand the different ranks/units and abbreviations.

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As a collector of Raj medals to Indians I have a large number of Victory Medals, I will let you have a list of my exAMPLES.

Paul

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I would agree that there would be no reason to fake such a medal. Was the MIC for his Great War medals or for a GSM?

Assuming it was a good price I wouldn't hesitate to purchase it.

Michael

Edited by Michael Johnson

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I have seen, unfortunately, many examples Indians poorly preserved, dents and scratches.

Lambert

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Alas that is the case with many Indian Medals, If its rare enough I will buy it however awful (within reason)

Paul

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Here is a list of my Indian Victory Medals (I also include Mesopotamian Railways and East African Railways as these were effectively Indian units).

1914-15 Star Trio (491 Sepoy Alaf Khan (on 14-15
star) Alif on BWM and Victory), 1/27 Punjabis)

1914-15 Star and Victory Medal pair, Star (No.
KCHI/231 Weighman Doonie Chand, S. & T. Corps) Victory (KCHI-231 T. Clk.
Duni Khan. S. & T. Corps)

BWM and Victory pair 77794 (B-Smith, Barkatali,
Meso. Rys.)

Victory Medal (6749 W-Man Oojagar Singh. I.W.T.),

Victory Medal (Gunkahar Singh, C.H. Bn. B.M.P.),

Victory Medal (MTDC-9665 Langri Rooper.)

Victory Medal (Mohd Nabi Postal Dept)

Victory Medal (Jemdr Buta Khan 3/124th
Baluchis) (D. o D. 5/11/1919)

Victory Medal (821 Carp-Mstry Bhan Singh I.W.T.)

Victory Medal (Las. Sk. Kadir RIM)

Victory Medal (47 P-Mkr Lal Khan 65 Govt. C.C.)

Victory Medal (MTCD-11764-Swpr. Ratna)

Victory Medal (7097 Masn. Singh Wks. Dte.)

Victory Medal (3562 Sepoy Adam Khan, 59 Rfls. F. F.)

Victory Medal (10817 G, Man Nadir, Meso, Rys.)

Victory Medal (811 Khal Kushi Mohd. Irgn. Dte.)

Victory Medal (Subdr. Hussain Khan, 1-30 Pjbs.)

Victory Medal (Subdr. Hayat Khan, 1-67 Pjbs)

Victory Medal (Subdr. Mustafa, 27 Pjbs)

Victory Medal (2635 Sub Kasturi Khan N. Waz. Mil)

Victory Medal (Subdr. Shah Noor, 46 Pjbs)

Victory Medal (110165 Cly. Munshi. Meso. Rys.)

Victory Medal (6758 Carp. Surain Singh. Meso. Rys.)

Victory Medal (Jemdr Sher Baz, 54 Sikhs),

Victory Medal (Ressldr Laurasib Khan 61 G. Camel
Cps.), attached from Hodsons Horse

Victory Medal (18461 Carp. Amar Singh, I.W.T.)

Victory Medal (728 Sarwan Mani. Khan, 53-C. T. Coy.)

Victory Medal (6783 Dvr Kali Ram Jaipur S.T. Corps),

Victory Medal (2684 Carp Sher Singh Works Dept)

Victory Medal (47334 H-Man Ghulam, I.W.T.)

Victory Medal (7485 Bhisty Rayah I.H.C.)

Victory Medal (S.A.S. Chajju Ram. I.M.D.)

Victory Medal (5070 W-Servt. Mutthrie. A.H.C.)

Victory Medal (17048 I. Mldr Simon Joseph E.A. Rys)

Victory Medal (15894 Survr. Fazal Hussain E.A. Rys),

Victory Medal (RP-304 T-Smith Ghulam Hussain, S.
& T. C.)

Victory Medal (26510 Lftr. Kalander E.A. Rys)

Victory Medal (7013 Drsr. Fateh Mohd.Khan)

Victory Medal (6691 L-NK: Jamal Din, N. Waz. Mil.)

Victory Medal (6691 L-NK: Jamal Din, N. Waz. Mil.)

All the best,

Paul


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Paul, do you know what all the unit abbreviations mean? I've searched online for a comprehensive list of Indian Army units in WWI - with abbrev's - but have come up empty.

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As one of my collecting lines is odd ranks/units Indian Army I am sure of most and have a fair idea of others.

Will enlighten in future posts.

Paul

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I saw a British Vic Medal to an Indian Halvidar in an antique shop this weekend, but was concerned that it felt "lighter" than other Brit Vic's in my collection. It didn't have a nice "heft" and seemed detail seemed "thin" on the obverse side. Were Vic's to the Indian Army made differently than others?

Also, the unit was engraved I.G.A - I thought this might be Indian Garrison Artillery, but when checking unit abbrev's on the UK Archives site, no such abbrev was listed.

Any thoughts from the Vic Medal experts?

(cross posted from UK forum)

I've had a vast collection of Victory Medals to Indian recipients, but I never noticed any difference with those issued to British personnel.

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A. MULE DEPOT.

Army Mule Department

A.B. CPS.

Army Bearer Corps

A.B.C.

Army Bearer Corps

A.M.P.

Assam Military Police

A.R.

Assam Rifles

ADEN TRP

Aden Troop

ALWAR I.S. INFY.

Alwar Imperial Service Infantry

ARTY I.D.F.

Garrison Artillery Indian Defence Force

ASSAM RIF.

Assam Rifles

B & C.I. RY BN. I.D.F.

Bombay & Central Indian Railway Battalion Indian Defence

Force

B.M. POLICE

Burma Military Police

B.M. Rif.

Bengal Mounted Rifles

B.M.P. ATTD. 15/SIKHS

Burma Military Police Attached 15th Sikhs

B.M.P.

Burma Military Police

B.T.

Bridging Train

BAL. INFY

Baluchistan Infantry

BALUCH. INF.

Baluchistan Infantry

BALUCHIS

Baluchis

BALUCHIS

Baluchistan Infantry

BASRAH SURVEYS

Basrah Surveys Department

BENGALIS

Bengalis

BHAMO BN B.M.P.

Bhamo Battalion Burma Military Police

BHAVN. I.S. LRS.

Bhavnagar Imperial Service Lancers

BHOPAL I.S. LRS.

Bhopal Imperial Service Lancers

BHOPAL INF.

Bhopal Infantry

BO. VOL. ART.

Bombay Volunteer Artillery

BOMBAY ARTY I.D.F.

Bombay Artillery Indian Defence Force

BOMBAY ARTY. I.D.F.

Bombay Artillery Indian Defence Force

BOMBAY BN. I.D.F.

Bombay Battalion Indian Defence Force

BOMBAY L.H.

Bombay Light Horse

BOMBAY VOL. AR.

Bombay Volunteer Artillery

BOMBAY VOL. ART.

Bombay Volunteer Artillery

BOMBAY VOL. RIF.

Bombay Volunteer Rifles

BRAHMANS

Brahmans

BURMA M.RIF.

Burma Mounted Rifles

BURMA MIL. P.

Burma Military Police

BURMA MOUNTED RFLS.

Burma Mounted Rifles

BURMA MTD. RFLS.

Burma Mounted Rifles

BURMA RIF.

Burma Rifles

C. OF GUIDES

Corps of Guides

C. OF GUIDES INF.

Corps of Guides Infantry

C.I. HORSE

Central Indian Horse

C.M.S.C.

Corps of Military Staff Clerks

C.P.D. GROUP GARR.

Cape Penninsular Defence Group

C.T. COY.

Camel Transport Company

CALCUTTA VOL. A.

Calcutta Volunteer Artillery

CALCUTTA VOL. BY.

Calcutta Volunteer Battery

CALCUTTA VOL. RIF.

Calcutta Volunteer Rifles

CAVALRY F.F.

Cavalry Frontier Force

CEYLON G.A.

Ceylon Garrison Artillery

COSSIPORE INFY.

Cossipore Infantry

COY. A.B.C.

Company Army Bearer Corps

COY. A.H. CORPS.

Company Army Hospital Corps

CPS. GUIDES

Corps of Guides

DELHI R.

Delhi Regiment

DEOLI R.

Deoli Regiment

DERAJAT M.B.

Derajat Mountain Battery

DIV. SIG. COY.

Divisional Signal Company

DIV. SIG. SQUAD

Divisional Signal Squadron

DOGRAS

Dogras

DELHI R.

Delhi Regiment

DEOLI R.

Deoli Regiment

DERAJAT M.B.

Derajat Mountain Battery

DIV. SIG. COY.

Divisional Signal Company

DIV. SIG. SQUAD

Divisional Signal Squadron

DOGRAS

Dogras

ERINPURAS

Erinpura Regiment

F.F.RIF.

Frontier Force Rifles

F.G.A.

Frontier Garrison Artillery

FD.CO.S. & M.

Field Company Sappers & Miners

FR. CONSTAB.

Frontier Constabulary

G.M.P.

Garrison Military Police

GARHWAL RIF.

Garhwal Rifles

GRENADIERS

Grenadiers

GRKS.RF.

Gurkha Rifles

GRNDSR.

Grenadiers

GUIDES CAVY.

Guides Cavalry

GUIDES INFY.

Guides Infantry

GUIDES INFY.

Guides Infantry

GURKHA RIF.

Gurkha Rifles

GWALIOR I.S. LRS.

Gwalior Imperial Service Lancers

HARIANA LNC.

Hariana Lancers

HORSE

Horse

I. ECC. EST.

Indian Ecclesiastical Establishment

I. LABOUR C.

Indian Labour Corps

I. REMT. D.

Indian Remount Department

I. SIG. S.

Indian Signal Service

I.A.

Indian Army

I.A.C.C.

Indian Army Corps of Clerks

I.A.M.C.

Indian Army Medical Corps

I.A.O.C.

Indian Army Ordnance Corps

I.A.P.S.S.

Indian Army Printing and Stationery Services

I.A.R.O.

Indian Army Reserve of Officers

I.A.S.

Indian Army Staff

I.A.V.C.

Indian Army Veterinary Corps

I.B.C.

Indian Bearer Corps

I.E. TEL. DEPT.

Indian Engineers Telegraph Department

I.H. CORPS.

Indian Hospital Corps

I.M.D.

Indian Medical Department

I.M.L.

Indian Miscellaneous List

I.M.S.

Indian Medical Service

I.M.T.

Indian Marine Transport

I.O.D.

Indian Ordnance Department

I.P.S.

Indian Postal Service

I.R.C.S.

Imperial Rest Camp Staff

I.S. CPS.

Imperial Staff Corps

I.S.C. CPS.

Imperial Service Camel Cps

I.S.M.D.

Indian Subordinate Medical Department

I.S.T.C.

Indian Supply Transport Commissariat

I.U.L.

Indian Unattached List

I.W.T.

Indian Water Transport

IND. ARTY.

Indian Artillery

IND. CST. ART.

Indian Coastal Artillery

IND. LAB. COY

Indian Labour Company

IND. SURVEY

Indian Surveys

INDIAN BR. CORPS

Indian Bearer Corps

INDIAN D.F.

Indian Defence Force

INDN. SIG. COY.

Indian Signal Company

INDN. TELEGRAPHS

Indian Telegraph Dept.

JAT LT. INF.

Jat Light Infantry

JATS

Jat Infantry

JIND I.S. INFY.

Jind Imperial Service Infantry

JODPHUR I.S. LRS.

Jodphur Imperial Service Lancers

KAPUR INFY.

Kapur Infantry

KAPURTHALA JAGATJIT INF.

Kapurthala Jagatjit Infantry

KASHMIR RFLS.

Kashmir Rifles

KOHAT M.B.

Kohat Mountain Battery

KOHAT M.B.F.F.

Kohat Mountain Battery Frontier Force

KURRAM MIL.

Kurram Militia

LAHORE LABOUR CPS

Lahore labour Corps

LANCERS F.H.

Lancers Fanes Horse

LANCERS

Lancers

LIGHT CAV.

Light Cavalry

LIGHT INF.

Light Infantry

LOCAL TRANSPORT

Local Transport

LRS.

Lancers

LT. CAV.

Light Cavalry

LT. CAVALRY

Light Cavalry

M. BTY.

Mountain Battery

M. FARMS D.

Military Farms Department

M.A.D.

Military Accounts Department

M.B.

Mountain Battery

M.B.R.G.A.

Mountain Battery Royal Garrison Artillery

M.C.

Mule Corps

M.D.

Mahendra Dhal Regiment

M.L. CPS

Mekran Levy Corps

M.T.C.

Motor Transport Corps

M.W.S.

Military Works Service

MACEDONIAN MULE C.

Macedonian Mule Corps

MACEDONIAN MULE CPS.

Macedonian Mule Corps

MADRAS MTR. CYC.

Madras Motor Cyclist

MADRAS S & M

Madras Sappers & Miners

MAGADI D.F.

Magadi Defence Force

MAHRATTAS

Mahrattas

MALAY S. GDS. ART.

Malay States Guides Artillery

MALAY S. GDS.

Malay States Guides

MALER KOTLA I-S. SPRS.

Malerkotla Imperial Service Sappers

MECH. TPT.

Mechanical Transport

MERWARAS

Merwara Infantry

MESO. R.

Mesopotamian Railways

MESO. RYS.

Mesopotamian Railways

MESPOT. RLYS.

Mesopotamian Railways

MHTS.

Mahrattas

MIL. M. CYC. C.

Military Motor Cyclists Corps

MTN. BATTERY

Mountain Battery

MTN. BATTY.

Mountain Battery

MULE CPS.

Mule Corps

MYIT. BN. B.M.P.

Myit Battalion Burma Military Police

N. RFLS.

Napiers Rifles

N. WAZ. MIL.

North Waziristan Militia

N. WAZ. MILITIA

North Waziristan Militia

N.B.M. RIF.

Northern Bengal Mounted Rifles

N.W. MILITIA

North Waziristan Militia

N.W. RLY. M.G. COY.

North West Railway Maxim Gun Company

NIL. MAL. BN. A.F.I.

Nilghai & Malabar Battalions Auxiliary Forces India

NIL. MAL. BN. I.D.F.

Nilghai & Malabar Battalions Indian Defence Force

NIL. VOL. RFLS.

Nilghai Volunteer Rifles

ORDNANCE DEPT.

Ordnance Department

OTRM. RFLS.

Outrams Rifles

OUTRN. RFLS.

Outranis Rifles

P. BTY. F.F.

Pack Battery Frontier Force

P. BTY.

Pack Battery Royal Garrison Artillery

P. CPS.

Pony Corps

P.G.

Pushpati Guards

PACK ARTY.

Pack Artillery

PACK BTY. R.G.A.

Pack Battery Royal Garrison Artillery

PALAM. L.I.

Palamcottah Light Infantry

PATALIA I.S. LNCRS.

Patalia Imperial Service Lancers

PATHANS

Pathans

PATIALA I.S. INFY

Patiala Imperial Service Infantry

PATIALA INFY.

Patiala Infantry

PESHAWAR LABOUR CPS.

Peshawar Labour Corps

PESHAWAR M.B.

Peshawar Mountain Battery

PIONEERS

Pioneers

PJBIS

Punjabis

PJBS

Punjabis

PNRS

Pioneers

PNRS.

Pioneers

POLITICAL I.A.

Political Department Indian Army

POSTAL DEPT

Postal Department

PRES. VOL. RIF.

Presidency Volunteer Rifles

PT. TFC.

Port Traffic

PUNJAB L.H.

Punjab Light Horse

PUNJABIS

Punjabis

Q.A.M.N.S.I.

Queen Alexandra's Medical Nursing Service India

Q.V.O. CPS. OF GUIDES (F.F.)

Queen Victoria's Own Corps of Frontier Force

Q.V.O. CPS. OF GUIDES

Queen Victoria's Own Corps of Guides

Q.V.O. MADRAS S & M

Queen Victoria's Own Madras Sappers & Miners

R. JAT L.I.

Royal Jat Light Infantry

R.I.A.

Royal Indian Artillery

R.I.M.

Royal Indian Marine

RAJPUTS

Rajputs

RIFLES

Rifles

RLY. C.C.

Railway Construction Company

RLY. D.F.

Railway Defence Force

RLY. REGT.

Railway Regiment

RY. BN. S & M.

Railway Battalion Sappers & Miners

S & T CORPS

Supply & Transport Corps

S & M

Sappers & Miners

S & T.C.

Supply & Transport Corps

S. WAZ. MIL

South Waziristan Militia

S. WAZ. MILITIA

South Waziristan Militia

S. WAZ. SCTS.

South Waziristan Scouts

S.C. CORPS.

Supply Commissariat Corps

S.D.I.E.

Subordinate Department Indian Engineers

S.W. MILITIA

South Waziristan Militia

SCHWEBO BN.

Schwebo Battalion

SIALKOT CAV. BDE.

Sialkot Cavalry Brigade

SIKH PIONEERS

Sikh Pioneers

SIKHS

Sikhs

STAFF

Staff

TEL. DEPT.

Telegraph Department

V.A. BTTY.

Volunteer Artillery Battery

V.M.D.

Volunteer Motor Drivers

VOL. ART. BY. LA.

Volunteer Artillery Battery Indian Army

VOL. M.G.B.

Volunteer Maxim Gun Battery

VOL. M.G.C.

Volunteer Maxim Gun Company

WALLAJ. L.I.

Wallajabad Light Infantry

WORKS DTE.

Works Directorate

Z.L. POLICE

Zhob Levy Police

R.I.M.

Royal Indian Marine

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Thank you for that most helpful.

If any one has any questions about the medals I have listed please ask and I will attempt to answer.

Paul

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Fantastic collection, Paul

I know it's hard, but I intend to find a trio Indian (in good condition) for my simple collection, if not, at least one pair in good condition ..

Posta very useful.

Thank you all.

Lambert

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Lambert trios turn up not cheap but due to low survival rate price from £150, pairs £80.

The next Dix Noonan Webb auction in March will have the third part of a large collection of Indian medals, may be the odd pair or trio there, usually on line about 3 weeks prior to sale.

Paul

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To all,

Here is one of my Indian groups. It was awarded to a Headman of the Supply and Transport Corps.

As Paul has indicated they are not particularly easy to obtain even in VF condition. They also rarely come with the original ribbons.

Regards,
Rob

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To one and all,

There is still much speculation as to whether or not the vic was also produced by the Calcutta Mint. Some believe it was and others insist it was produced in London.

With little to no records from the Calcutta Mint surviving it will interesting if any of our Indian collectors could offer some insights.


Regards,
Rob

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Rob, lovely trio and nice rank.

As to the Calcutta mint question. I feel sure that they would have produced and named them. I suspect the dies for the medals were sent from London and then produced and named in Calcutta, certainly I feel this would have been the case for Indian Army, I assume that British troops in India would have received London produced.

Paul

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Rob, lovely trio and nice rank.

As to the Calcutta mint question. I feel sure that they would have produced and named them. I suspect the dies for the medals were sent from London and then produced and named in Calcutta, certainly I feel this would have been the case for Indian Army, I assume that British troops in India would have received London produced.

Paul

Hello Paul,

Thanks for the comment on the group. When I obtained it I had to do some research into what the Supply and Transport Corps was and certainly into what rank a 'Headman' was. So much variety with Indian medals.

I have a couple of Indian groups and they all have the BWM with the characteristic larger suspender claw on the BWM indicating a Calcutta Mint production. I also have a group to an English LT who was commissioned into an Indian Regiment and received his medals while in India. Again the BWM is of Calcutta Mint production. I have seen other British groups where they received their medals when the arrived back in the UK and not while in India.

We also know that the 1914-15 Star was produced by the Calcutta Mint due to the minor reverse die differences. The vic is the anomaly. As you have indicated people are sure it was produced by the Calcutta Mint but no records have survived to confirm this.

This makes the search for definitive proof all the more interesting.

Regards,

Rob

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Hi Paul,

I see you have 3 medals to E.A. Rys. This abbreviation is not in the list you provided. Is this East African Railways?

Jean-Paul

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Jean-Paul,

It is indeed, like the mesopotamian railways they were mainly staffed by indians and thus fall into my collecting remit.

Paul

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For Paul,

Some plain paper packets that were used for the issuing of medals from the Calcutta Mint. While these examples are of later era medals it would be probable that such packets were also used for earlier era medals.


Regards,
Rob

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Rob, ignore previous PM

I saw some similar envelopes for the republic type 1 MSMs and LSGCs (short-lived and soon replaced by by pieces which bore less resemblance to the British India examples). Still very nice. I assume the WWI medals must have been forwarded by registered mail similar to the British issues, while you see British ones with original forwarding envelope and documents I have yet to find an Indian group thus.

If any one has seen Indian WWI medals as originally forwarded I would be extremely interested to know.

Paul

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Hi Gents,

I've just been looking at the vics offered on eBay by the seller maritime medals -

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=&_osacat=0&_armrs=1&_ssn=maritimemedals&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313&_nkw=ww1+victory+medal&_sacat=0&_from=R40

He has quite a few to Indian recipients and I was struck by the prevalence of a darker, less shiny golden finish in these medals. The planchet, suspension and ring seem to match in this respect. There are, to be sure, some Indian issue that have the usual Type 2 golden finish, and some vics to British recipients have a darker finish, but I could almost pick out the Indian recipients from the photos by the difference in colour.

This got me wondering - if there were vics produced by the Calcutta Mint was the finishing process less thorough than the British production, or was a different finish applied?

Bill

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