Dolf Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) Andrei,Yes, you're absolutely right. With so many real Soviet awards available on the battlefield or from prisoners indeed it doesn't make much sense for German Intelligence to make such replicas! The only reason I thought about that is that German style pinback! A mystery indeed! Did you have it in your hands? Or you know in which material(s) it is made? Is the hammer and sickle real solid gold, or at least goldplated? And the main body of the order?Anyway, the texture on the reverse pics doesn't look at all like the material used on original Soviet OGPW!Dolf Edited July 14, 2006 by Dolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 I can imagine it being made in the DDR after 1945 for some Friendly Eastern Neighbor serving on occupation duty protecting the DDR. Maybe someone just didn't like screwback awards making holes in their pretty uniform?I cannot see the "German intelligence" argument as anything more than an eBay seller's fantastic lie. If German troops working behind Soviet lines wore such fake orders, awards that would scream out "Nazi", then I can understand even more so why Germany lost the war. If this was intended to fool the collecting market (assuming they didn't swallow the "German intelligence" rubbish), I can't imagine anyone except a Third Reich collector, straying into Soviet awards with total ignorance, being fooled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley1965 Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 ODD INDEED!!! Still no verdict? Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolf Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 (edited) I can imagine it being made in the DDR after 1945 for some Friendly Eastern Neighbor serving on occupation duty protecting the DDR. Maybe someone just didn't like screwback awards making holes in their pretty uniform?Ed,You mean a Russian/Soviet soldier having it done (illegaly, I guess) in DDR? I can only imagine what would have been the punishment if his superiors found out!And if it was a replacement because he didn't like making holes on his uniform, shouldn't this piece have a S/N?DolfPS: Btw, I just noticed this was your Post #3000 !!! Wow! Many thanks for your fantastic contribution on the Forum! Edited July 15, 2006 by Dolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeCL Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 935 is a high grade silver mark..european mark, not Germanythey usually use 800, 825.and not russian..just a thought.George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolf Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 (edited) 935 is a high grade silver mark..european mark, not Germanythey usually use 800, 825.and not russian..just a thought.GeorgeThanks a lot for the clarification George!So apparently it's made of good silver!So not just a cheap fake I guess!George, you collect TR awards, right?What's your opinion about this pinback? If not German, where could it be manufactured?Thanks again,Dolf Edited July 14, 2006 by Dolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondvor Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 935 is a high grade silver mark..european mark, not Germanythey usually use 800, 825.and not russian..just a thought.GeorgeWe getting closer!!! Thanks George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondvor Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Maybe out of topic but still might be interesting for people who love WWII history.On dark night September 5th, 1944 German cargo plane landed deep behind Soviet lines near Smolensk region. It delivered two terrorists - man and woman (former Soviet citizens who were on Nazi service) with a mission to get to Moskow and kill Stalin. They were equipped wit a secret weapon "Panzerknakke" (not sure about correct spelling). It was a kind of mini-rocket launcer hidden in suit's sleeves. They were provided with a motorcycle to get to Moskow and well-done documents. According with the documents this man was Major Tavrin - Deputy Commander of "SMERSH" Department of 39th Army (1st Baltic front). Lady had a documents of Jr. Lieutenant Lidiya Shilova - Secretary of "SMERSH" Department of 39th Army.German famous terrorist Otto Scortseni personally gave instructions to those guys. Most interesting part - Major Tavrin was decorated with HSU Gold Star medal and some other orders (including Nevsky). In his luggage he even had a fake newspaper PRAVDA printed in Germany with a fake Decree of his HSU title.His Gold Star of course was real and belonged to Major-General Shepetov, former commander of 14th Guards Division who was killed on May 25, 1942 near Kharkov. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolf Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Andrei,Interesting article!Just a couple of questions, I'm not sure I got it all right.You say this couple of German intelligence agents were former Soviet citizens, then working for the nazis.Were they the real Major Tavrin - Deputy Commander of "SMERSH" Department of 39th Army (1st Baltic front) and Jr. Lieutenant Lidiya Shilova - Secretary of "SMERSH" Department of 39th Army? Or just two agents using documents with the names of the above mentioned?Or the names on the docs were also simply forged?Thanks,Dolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondvor Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Tavrin's real name was Petr Ivanovich Shilo, former criminal man. Lidiya Shilova in real life was Lidiya Bobrik. German Intillegence made fake IDs with fake names, fake ranks and positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolf Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Tavrin's real name was Petr Ivanovich Shilo, former criminal man. Lidiya Shilova in real life was Lidiya Bobrik. German Intillegence made fake IDs with fake names, fake ranks and positions.Wow, I see!Everything was fake except the Gold Star (which was real but taken from a real HSU KIA)!Thanks Andrei Dolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christophe Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Back to the Order.My first comment would be "fake", just as many of them seem to come to eBay in a short time... But, maybe someone has dicovered a cache ...I've read all your other comments. Could we imagine this order which looks like the 1985 version, and so has been largely awarded, has been produced in some former Soviet republics after they gain their independance, for veterans to buy / replace them ? Of course, these "new" would have been locally and privately made (no more by the Soviet mint) with standards close to the German style... I'm here thinking about former Soviet Baltic republics... I know this theory is complicated, and I have no element to assert it. Pure speculation , but...Ch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
order_of_victory Posted July 14, 2006 Author Share Posted July 14, 2006 Wow, this has sparked some facinating theories I now think i will bid on it for intrest value alone MONDVOR, thanks for the article.Order of Victory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christophe Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 OoV,If I see one myself, I would certainly buy one... as a variety, but without historical value... Cheers.Ch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josef Rietveld Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 935 is a high grade silver mark..european mark, not Germanythey usually use 800, 825.and not russian..just a thought.GeorgeSorry I don't agree with you. The silver content mark 935 is IMHO not a clear indicator for a non-german manufacture. I know german decorations marked 800, 825, 850, 900, 925, 938, 950 etc. etc.I myself own an IC1 with 950regards haynau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyFCO Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 I took another look at the one on eBay and it is clearly different than the one MONDVOR had. Which means that these were somewhat regularly made and more exist. Here's my theory:Place: Divided Germany, Soviet sector. Time: Approx 10 years immediate post-WW2. Situation: Number 1 - Unemployed German jewelers. Number 2 - Soviet soldiers and officers tired of sticking screws through their uniforms (as you can see from photos). Fast forward to now include enterprizing German jewelers... "Hmmm... Franz, if we make Soviet awards with pins on the reverse like we used to make awards for our army, the Soviets would buy them." So, the jewlers make up a batch of awards, and the Soviet officers/soldiers buy them. Final outcome: German jewelers that can put food on the table and Soviet soldiers without big holes in their uniform!I'd bet money that's where they came from.Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondvor Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 (edited) I don't know... For regular Soviet GPW you have to make only one hole in the uniform. But for this badge you have to make two holes... Edited July 15, 2006 by MONDVOR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeCL Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 No Holes.. just loops.. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondvor Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 No Holes.. just loops.. GeorgeDo you mean they just sewed the order to the uniform? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolf Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 (edited) As far as I can tell I think Andrei is right!A pinback makes two holes (maybe smaller than the ones made by a screwback, but still two!) and a screwback only one! Right? Dolf Edited July 15, 2006 by Dolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeCL Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 (edited) I was assuming they would attach to the uniform as the Germans would attach a IC 1.Chain stiched loops and it would hang there.I took this pic off another site..George Edited July 15, 2006 by georgecl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondvor Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Dave found very interesting detail. The order on Ebay is different from one that I've posted. Sorry, I didn't pay attention on that fact, my bad After Dave's message I looked at them carefully and found that mintmark is on different positions.What does that mean? It means that this is not private jewellers work, this is not a replica for a theater or movie, this is not simple sloppy fake. This looks like an official governmental issue. But how could be possible that one country officialy makes awards of another country? I know, it sounds like a bullshit. But it could be only one possible explanation.As you all know, according with the Decree of March 11, 1985 all participants of Great Patriotic War were awarded with GPW order (Type 3). This is a tremendous number of orders. Millions of them. That is why orders were produced not only on Leningrad and Moscow mints, but also on other factories - Factory "Russian Gems", Moscow Jewelery Factory, Kaliningrad Amber Factory, Sverdlovsk Factory, Tallin Jewelery Factory, Mstera Factory and others. In some European country (I don't know exactly in which one) could be significant number of veterans who fought against Nazism and have the rights to be awarded with GPW according with 1985 Decree. And Soviet Union gave a permission to this country to produce limited number of orders to give to these people. Soviet Union provided this country with the image of the order's obverse, but reverse was made in according with national traditions. Also Soviet Union printed special orderbooks for foreign recipients.To support my hypotesis I can show you the image of non-standart order booklet to GPW Type 3. If you compare the text - it is really different from regular ones. Even though it was issued to Russian person, same documents could be issued for foreigners.This is just a theory. So far I have no facts to proove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolf Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 George,Thanks for posting this pic.Well, honestely I'm not sure what would make more damage to a uniform, if the hole of a screwback or this system the Germans used! Dolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondvor Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 I was assuming they would attach to the uniform as the Germans would attach a IC 1.Chain stiched loops and it would hang there.I took this pic off another site..GeorgeAs far as I know, Russians did never stich their orders to uniform. And even if they did, why make this complicated pin? It would be much easier just to make two soldered metal rings on the reverse to attach threads to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolf Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 (edited) Andrei,Isn't it possible nowadays to get confirmation of that theory from Russian officials, and/or Archives?Interesting one anyway!Btw, if this theory is right, does it mean there would be another variation of the OGPW T3?Thanks,Dolf Edited July 15, 2006 by Dolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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