Biro

Ok... It was touch and go for top honours between these two Godets..... [attachmentid=21565] But literally right at the last minute, this Dec 2005 purchase shaded it... [attachmentid=21566]

At the risk of turning this in the wrong direction.... There was some study done of an S-W marked 1914 EK1 here..... http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2334 - the recipient is ...er... 'well known' and even if the pin is a replacement (which it could very well be), why the S-W designation on a pin replaced presumably well after 1914? As Stogie has suggested, an extremely confusing scenario if indeed S-W is in fact Sy Wagner (as we commonly beleive) and Andreas is correct about the J Wagner takeover of Sy Wagner mid 1880???? Carry on now... Marshall

Santa was extremely good to you!! Of course, Santa's 25% discount makes a hell of a difference too! Congratulations David - a beauty. I had an eye on this one too. Glad it found the right chimney. Marshall

Variations? Count 'em...

How on earth did you find this site Greg??? Welcome mate... M

Hi Joe Very nice piece! Here is another Werner for comparison.... [attachmentid=19014] Interestingly, although the pin and hinge set-up is different to yours, this one also appears to have something on the underside of the pin.... although it's impossible to make out what it is. Marshall [attachmentid=19015]

Another week, another Weiderholungsspange... http://cgi.ebay.de/Wiederholungsspange-191...1QQcmdZViewItem

Of interest for anyone still not convinced these rare pieces are in any way 'prolifically' observed on ebay.... http://cgi.ebay.de/Eisernes-Kreuz-1-Klasse...1QQcmdZViewItem This time, in 1st class with a 'JGuS' mark. Marshall

Thank you all for the comments and the help ID'ing the Wilhelmskreuz... I appreciate it! Marshall

That'd be the 'J Godet' tag I referred to earlier Joe! Rick posted another one here .. http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=1...findpost&p=7762 Marshall

ohhhhhh .... this one.. http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Thanks Heiko! Very quick...and a good memory. Indeed, it is the ebay bar.... (but not the one I really wanted... ) Marshall

Hi y'all I'm a bit new to the bar-game.... so I would welcome some opinions on this non-com bar with a nice 'J Godet' metal plate on the reverse. Also, if someone could ID the last medal for me, eternally greatfull I will be. Yes, I will. thanks Marshall

For the record, the image is a little blurred but having done another stippling match-up, I am now sure the obverse of this ebay piece on the bar is also a match for everyone elses here... (i.e. it has the 'cats paw', the 'semi circular' sweeping patterns, and a few other stippling reference points that I use to I.D these...) The reverse is not featured, but this being a 2 prong attatchment example, the seller should easily be able to see if this is marked with the Wagner name AND the moon, Crown, 800. He certainly hasn't chosen to mention it if it is so marked. I now have pictures from Tony J of his 1914 Weiderhlungsspange which is the type featured by Geissler in his book. It is marked Joh Wagner & Sohn, but in a different style to ours and does NOT have the moon/crown/800 stamp. It is also the ONLY example I have seen where the pebbling pattern is different, the quality is better & the date and crown detail much 'finer' than the pieces we collectively own. To all intenets and purposes, it 'looks' the same... but up close, it is most definitely not. I personally have enormous faith in it. Make of that what you will, I guess...

Thanks Antti !! Already added.. Marshall

Joe You started it!! http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=2...indpost&p=26186 Ye who waveth thoust spectacular piece first shalt not cast the 1st stone... .....but thank you! Like Jim (Panzerman), I'm a variant only collector... the rarer B-Types were top of the list for 1939 EK2 and I now shudder.. and I mean SHUDDER when I reflect on what I paid for the 1st one .. whereas I stumbled on the 2nd for the price of a normal standard three EK2. Truly it is each to there own... I know mant collectors would not have an 'ugly' B-type anywhere near their collections. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.. but even with that in mind, your stunning 1914 EK2 wins HANDS DOWN IMO. Marshall

Good... cos I'm dying to know what this pin is all about!! A 'wrap-around' type frame maybe?? Marshall

That is an absolutely wonderful grouping Gordon.. my congratulations on a great & rare find. I too would be interested in knowing how you will go about arresting the rust to the EK2.... I have an 1870 EK1 that is beginning its innevitable submission to the 'orange' meanie.. WD40 .... maybe, but I'd be interested in your approach too..... regards Marshall

Any developments in 'that' department Brian?

Hi Rick I'm not sure I'm quite getting the question... Here's a closer shot of the stem on Les's 1914 prinzen... it appears to turn and flare... but maybe that's not what you're asking... ?? Can you re-word for someone with only a basic grasp of language.... Marshall

So while I am not in any way a figure who has the clout to say.. 'these are definitely fakes'... I've drawn my own conclusions from these observations... and just like Mr Niemann, I would not buy one for any amount of money... Feel free to comment, and if close-ups of other areas are required, I'll do my best to post them for you. Hope this has been helpful... Marshall

And things wouldn't be complete without a first class version... (in this case, of the 1870 version...) I have these on file with makers as diverse as JGuS, I Wagner & Sohn, A Gross, 13 Lotig, etc.... and yes... the beading characteristics of the frames are IDENTICAL to that of the second class version... it dosen't matter which second class version, 1813... 1914... they are all the same.... You'll notice also that on this random selection of 1st class Prinzens, there is an odd paint flaking effect... the 'round circles' of flaking paint are common, but not always present on the first class I have seen.

.....especially when you consider that if you rotate each piece in the relevant direction to get the flashing in the 6 o'clock position, you'll find that all three frames share identical beading characteristics.... Check the 4 inner corners, and the top right corner for starters... again - on pieces that were supposedley produced MANY DECADES apart from each other...

But even if you ignore the core altogether (and I'm sure there are many of you who will swear that there are minute difference to all those cores above...) the MOST damning observation is in the frames of these pieces. Youll note that there is a distinctive 'flashing' that has not been removed from the beading before assembley, on ALL THREE pieces, spanning near 100 years of production... That really is taking the argument for using 'leftover stock from the previous war' to the extreme... and I'd go as far as to say an impossibility...

There are many factors against this type in my opinion.... - First and foremost, on any given week, I could find you at least two of these on ebay or with dealers etc.. Like any rare item (the 1914 WHS springs to mind...) the first sign of a rat is the availability. Things don't bode well on that front for these Prinzens.. just check the ebay links posted above.. - Second, they have been posted by Niemann as his fake of the week... and that in itself is often enough to turn most collectors off... - Third, you'll notice a distinct lack of imagination when it came to designing the dies for these Prinzens. Don't forget, from Dave's 1813 to Les's 1914 we are talking about a span of almost 100 years .. name me one manufacturer who has not had multiple die changes for their product as they progressed from one war to the next... and yet the reverse of these pieces remains essentially identical.