saschaw

I recently got this medal bar with much "Prussian Blue" on it: three of the generic blue long service ribbons sandwiched by an EK II and an Erinnerungsmedaille 1897! The bar is an really old one from about 1918/1920 era, so it cannot be for something TR-ish nor can it be foolishly ignored 1936 long service awards regulations. The 2nd long service award is missing, but as the 3rd class is mounted in last place I cannot imagine it was a legitime LW2, but one more for the active military. From the height of the ring it has been most likely a cross 1st class for XV years. Is it possible with imperial maths to have (not to wear, I know the rules) the IX, XV and XXV?!

Nice picture! It cannot pre-date 1918 as I see a Prussian wounded badge... The picture may be from the last year of the "Great War" or later. With those people you never know, reminds me to Hindenburg who still wore his Prussian uniform in the 30s... Unfortunally I cannot give you a name, but the "Berthold" was not given often: 65 awards before 1896 (not as a order for its own but as a higher grade of the order of the Z?hringer lion) plus 107 awards for the Berthold grand cross from 1896 to 1918, according to H. Volle. I'm not sure but think they were also awarded/worn later, but only by members of the house of Baden. I have nothing handy but a picture in mind from the 1960s...

Yes, I'm sure about the officer/NCO thing. I don't know the exact reason for it but assume it was some kind of rule in the Prussian awarding system. No EKs were given to foreign NCOs and EMs in WWI. For Austrians, I have even the numbers handy for EKs and Krieger-Verdienstmedaillen. In the table it's not mentioned but the EKs went to officers while the KVMs were given to NCOs.

To an officer, not to an NCO? Any Austrian EM or NCO would have received the Prussian Krieger-Verdienstmedaille, EKs were only given to officers. Another thing would be a Austrian in German service, as A. Hitler was. But this combination here is in my humble opinion to an Austrian in an Austrian unit, so the EK would make him an officer. No idea how common it was and guess it was rather unususal, but many did continued to wear enemy awards, in any war and era. But, he would presumably have gotten it as a "still-Austrian" pre-1938. The longer I look at the bar, the less sense it makes. Are you sure the sewing looks fine? I'm honestly not sure about that anymore...

Back to topic, please. Thinking about the combination I came about: an Austrian NCO would NOT have received an Iron Cross, while an Austrian officer could NOT have gotten an W?rttemberg silver military merit medal. The W?rttemberg ribbon is quite the same as for Austrian long service award while the generic red ribbon in last place may well be some peace time Austrian award. Might it be a real bar that has been played with... ?!

Godet made both versions, and those do look like Godets. They are, aren't they?

Well, just a rough guess. May have been few... or more... The typical stuff as eCrap, many with Austrian WWI awards on German style bars and they all looked very new, using fresh repro ribbons. My absolutely favorite was a three place bar with KDM 1813/14, Iron Cross 1813 and a veteran association award from 1880s. Great repro bar with an even greater altered 1914 EK II - for 950,- Euro.... Most, if not all faked bars that I saw there would be recognized as such here, even from pictures. So all is still "fine", I think. At least for us that know a little about our stuff... :unsure:

Honestly, I don't know what makes it smell bad. It just does. Here's the matching medal bar that was offered on eBay some years ago. As bad as your ribbon bar, says my guts. Maybe they're wrong and both are fine - but I'd really wonder. On friday I've been to the Kassel show. At least a third of German medal bars were faked, presumbaly even more. I didn't count them, but it wasn't a good feeling seeing that many put-togethers... :speechless1:

Paul, I honestly doubt that your medal and ribbon bar are an actual set. The ribbon bar's missing the Mecklenburger while the medal bar has not the Tirol medal... :banger:

Sorry epsomgreen, but I do absolutely not like that bar. It looks much like a modern put-together to me.

Nice findings, Paul! I think the 2nd bar maybe easier to research, with the Wilhelmskreuz with swords to an Prussian. I may be wrong, let's wait what others will think about it. I got only one thing from Kassel, not two. A bit expensive but I really liked it. Hope you like it, too. I was promised I will get the name to it via E-Mail, now hope that will work.

That bar used to be mine. I saw it again in Kassel, too. Scott, did you yet buy it? I'm not sure if it is still available, it may have been sold or selling today or tomorrow. I think that's right here, and that was one of the reasons I did not replace anything. W?rttemberg's long service crosses had to be returned, as the orders had to. It was a XXV as the cross used to be tied down with yellow theread. But Karl or Wilhelm? No idea... Better pictures?! =)

I'd say Scott is right, this is the ribbon for the Prussian "Verdienstkreuz f?r Kriegshilfe". It was actually a royal Prussian award, but awrded from 1916 to 1924 is may be considered as "Weimar era", partly. The nicer bar of those two should be the upper one, with the Bavarian "Beamtenband" for MVO or MVK.

That's why I sent you an E-Mail... Call me, please.

I wanted to come but unfortunally found noone that would drive me... Maybe in 2oo9...

Aaah, that's an OV3b, thought it were an Friedrich August-Kreuz and missed it on the medal bar. THANK YOU! :beer:

Oh, me fool was talking about my bars, but forgot to mention. But though, you could have remembered them as there are not "to many" out... So: Werlhof was a Leutnant when the war started... so possible to be him?! It is almost the same as Werner's bar to von Grone, but not exactely - Oldenburg and Austria, plus yet I'm ignoring the pre-war orders as they were not always worn on war time ribbon bars. Is there a list with Bavarian MVOs to Non-Bavarians...? :rolleyes:

I looked threw the list but didn't find one I suspect more than others - I didn't find any officer. Maybe he got it before his career. But, what rank has this Werlhof? Sorry, don't get all the abbreviations here...

I do like the bar and sewing, seems to be a fine set - and the Coburg cross is quite rare... Why? The lenght is absolutely okay for a 4 place bar, from what I see.

Thanks Claudio! 735,- Euro, what a bargain for one of the few "real" chains... really pity. Why didn't you post it before the auction? Haha, they're good... Absolutely correct. One still might argue what "Zustand 2" is, but with "Zustand 1", there may not be anything about it. Just "new". Well, at least he took it back.

Aaaargh.... why did they not send us a catalogue? :banger: I re-recognized RvD's chain even without the "Karl Friedrich", and it would have been nice to "re-marry" it with our lose miniature. If someone now needs one very hardly: Jan K. Kube had one in his last auction that was bought by us and resent as it was not "Zustand I" but had some slightly damages. Still nice and rare, of beautiful quality and detail - but we don't buy "Zustand 1" to receive damaged things. PS: could someone please tell me how much RvD's chain sold for? Thanks in advance.

Yes, with the enemaled device it should be an officer with MVO knight's cross. Not really a "nice" bar with the full size ribbon in last place, but at least it seems to be old. Uncommon combination, but not identifiable, I'd say. If there were a list for the Reichsfeuerwehr-Ehrenzeichen it presumably would be, but I'm not aware of such a list. Just recently, I got a similar Baden bar: the generic WWI trio for a Baden officer with BZL3bX, plus the TR "Reichsfeuerwehr-Ehrenzeichen" as on your bar. Nooo... take one more look, please. It is the "Weltkriegs-Erinnerungsmedaille".

The bar has been put together way after the Great War (at least not until 1934), so it may be possible this medal in bronce is a later replacement. Or were those officially given out, too? When they started to award those I think they did use zinc only, I'd guess. I used to have another one, quite interresting I think: made from Aluminium!

Aaargh... That set was on eBay and I didn't see it nor did someone offer it to me... The last ribbon is not a REO but Baden's 1902 reign jubilee medal. Nice set that I always liked, now moving from France to Sweden. If you're getting tired of it, fell free to e-mail me, please. PS: Ah, Daniel again around? Thought your PC went to die finally... waiting for an e-mail, I think.. ;o)

Thank you. If you're ever getting tired of it... I just realized: with this "Ring?se", it may even be a Spangenst?ck which makes it at least a bit less weirder. I found this bar about a half year ago on a German forum and initially though "Navy!". Later, the whole paper group came up on eBay and indeed, it was a Navy guy from W?rttemberg. Bar and documents are most likely apart, and me fool did not even notice the wearer's name - but still have the bar's picture and know: NAVY! :speechless: