Marcus H

On your example you can clearly see whats associated with this maker as the 'boobs' hinge, (some call it that and in my low taste diction it's the best I can do for now ) on my short pin version I have a more generic sorts also found on this maker. Here we both have the round pin, both of mine are steel where as yours is brass, this would indicate in some realms of thought an 'earlier' made example, I'm more of the thought that it was possible yeah, but more likely a 'make do and mend scenario' of metals and hinge to hand used during a period perhaps ? This pic illustrates long and short pin though for you.

This is what is known as to be a Wernstein made GAB, however there is some deliberation on going as to if this maker mark is attributed to this maker. It's one of several pin styles for the Wernstein set up on the reverse and is deemed 'semi' desirable in the sense it has the short pin and catch placement in the middle.......it's not so common of this more commonly encountered maker, you can pick them up certainly more than most and it's more than possible to find this version, but not so often as it were. It's original what counts and a nice example you have. Kr Marcus

Oh my gawd !!! Now that really isn't worth the paper it's printed on !!!

The first one Sal shows is fake as Rick says, this second one, Jacques can you lift up the material on the base catch to confirm my thoughts please. (in my opinion it's fake, a built up base, there are some good Luft ones of these about too, they have the oblate rounded head on the catch, more commonly you find the one like Sal shows, pointed or the 'apex' head. Bring it along to Stuttgart Jacques I'd like to ponder over this example in hand if I may)

Oh Mike o you still own this ?

I'd be inclined to opt for good based on Mikes pic's, outer covering, incuse lines etc a clear match in my opinion and I agree with the observation the velour material too. Thank you my firend Mike Kr Marcus

'Limey', is derived from the limes carried on ships to curtail scurvy, rich in vitamin C I'd imagine then it being a citrus fruit. They'd drink the lime juice as a matter of requirement I've read in the past. Perhaps not RN per se that though !

A pic of the whoe bar can be seen in Gordons, 'The Iron Cross of 1939'

Packet: type 1 (i) wide space date and arabic class numeral

rev

Here's one mate I'll have to get the camera out for a couple more

Perhaps Gordon can shed some light on this sorts, as they are few and far between, he has had alot of exposure to these cases in recent times........I think I've seen one before which was a D&B pattern construction. I'm not aware of any such fake like this, the fakes tend to emulate poorly the full block motif types (or just the Ldo versions). But as suggested would like to see the catch in the near future for a Marcus' prognosis of the catch working theory.

Well, I like the look of the outer covering personally without looking at my files for confirmation. This type of stencil motif is a rare encounter ! You can see it's not an exact match for the KVK, being minus the centre portion and looks more like an Maltese cross proper. The catch and surround would suggest an earlier rather than latter period made box perhaps as a rule manufacture wise, but isn't a premise altogether. However, from what I can see I'd determine it's not altogether an earlier sorts, the hinge covering and base material....maybe I'm worng. This style (deeper grain) of outer covering is encountered on wound badge boxes, some other KVK and EK boxes too (note: the box for the most part basically was the same same for the awards mentioned {Ost Volk too} only the base would differ for the wound badge say {unless screwbacks, where colour of the base material can ligitimately it seems differ adversely too} and sometimes the motif of course and also the colour of the velour or material covering the base) Can I see a pic of the catch please, from the front and from an eye level perspective with the head of the catch visible and I'll see what I can deduce from that and give you my opinion. Kr Marcus

This looks to be good, although there are fake cases for these now !! Also, the brown ones too !! 600 euro though, good grief thats alot of money for one of these in my estimation, even at 400 your paying 300 or so for the case 200-250 I'd have thought in the real world, but then this hobby has gone silly and these are the 'real world' prices now Some one will purchase it though and hence the prices increase and so on and on...........maddness.

The two other packets look to be fine though, if thats any consolation.

Hi guys, This packet is a fake, very good by comparison, the paper is near perfect in the regard to 'other' origional examples, the designation is also believable. The way to spot these is the lettering though and the spacing between the numerals (there are numerous original designation variations and numeral types, spacing close and more seperated of course etc etc). In addition to the recognition alone, it is an unmarked packet and always has this left hand fold (again, not ALL fakes have left hand folds, several genuine counterparts have this trait too, it also true to say most fakes have the right hand fold) They come in blue and tan colours, always evident in multiple batches at most shows from Stuttagrt to Birmingham they are a plenty with fake sellers and the 'better' dealers, Detlev had one not so long ago. I had conducted the same ink and paper age testing as done on the Hansen-Hausen West Wall packets some time ago for a conclusive conclusion on these for me. The results came back that they are without any reasonable doubt post war packets, ink and paper ! I had several tested, not just my examples. I do have an article for this forum, and will post it very soon on recognition of the larger size EK packet designations and some variants of maker marks to be found. Kr Marcus

Thanks very much Steve, thats the same (I think ??) then as Angolia's example I've just pictured. You don't happen to have the second volume also do you please. Then there's the one on Winklers site with a Detlev cert. So are there two versions then that are correct perhaps ?

On Detlev's cert. for the one for sale on Winklers site, the cert states it's like that of the examples in museums and public collections (I think that would mean private collections perhaps) This one is from LTC John R. Angolias's book from 1977 and the first edition of For Fuhrer and Fatherland.

I've a first edition of F & F, it's no ribbon in this book then and it looks like it's painted black as the one above I own, perhaps it's worn ? They seem to be painted black Terry. Winkler has one with the Detlev cert. I couldn't save any pic's though from the site ? I'm sure I used to be able too. What is the stance on these and how did the conclusion come about ? I'll e mail Detlev in the week and also obtain more pic's. If anyone has Detlev's first volume please could they show pic's of the medal.

Hi Terry, Angolia writes, ''it is assumed that the intended ribbon was to bear the red, black and white national colours of Germany'.

In brief Ed what I gather is that this one is one of numerous forwarded designs at the actual request for such an award for the campaigns in the West. The prototype/trial run examples which ever by definition, more a 'rose by another name' terminology there perhaps were then never taken further for an 'unknown reason', i.e offically sanctioned thus instituted, reasons for which aren't divulged in any book to date. So on what premise it's decided what is good or bad I don't know or however what is written about them is known, I've not a clue.......but would like to know certainly. Sort of my question really, the example above is now, 'not liked' but another is ? How do you qualify such a medal ? Don, No I don't have pictures from of either of Detlev's books, there is an example for sale like that in the second volume though on either Weitzes or Winklers site with a Detlve Cert. though.

Hey Ralph, A nice score mate !! Perfectly genuine orange packet, of the examples (numerous) I know of and own it tends to be of this maker. Packets with this exact desigantion are also encountered in your more common blue, namely with the maker Deumer on them to date as a note, although they should be in this instance be considered more generally as 'generic', than perhaps attributed to certain makers at this stage. Bob, This desigantion is my favourite type, I love the numerals on these. I think one of mine like this is a K&Q, you have a very nice 'non standard' maker mark there, so far as to say less often encoutered with these letter proportions for this makers mark......but it is encountered and found on other packets and other more mundane common fraktur designated EK packets. You find at least 5 versions/variations of maker marks, abbreviated, styles etc etc etc on most maker marks.......just a sad little hobby of mine collateing these and desigantions on all paper packets. I really do love those numerals, very en vogue with a par to the rest of the world rather than Nazi latin, Nazi fraktur styles or just classic fraktur (gothic in other words) Two very nice packets !! Kr Marcus

rev

Very little seems to be published in regard to this medal. As a non sanctioned award and the literature availble states it was a 'prototype' and thus trial samples exist as such, what type is deemed correct or more correct, all, or none ? In Detlev's first catalogue I believe the example shown in there is one like I picture below, in the second volume it's another pattern, which now in the fraternity of collectors is deemed the genuine type alone ? With a trial strike, would there have been one sole protoype produced by one 'company'/designer initially or would have several companies produced them (making their own molds from a 'official' design) in a perhaps more than optimistic anticipation so as to be in the game when officially sanctioned ? Is this example pictured below now deemed fake or has it always really been thought as such ? Kr Marcus

These are a worthy purchase indeed ! They've shot up in price in just three years to crazy money ! A lovely one Bob Your packet is in even better condition than my example. Kr Marcus