Graf

Hi Streptile, Thank you for the information and the pictures It is of big help to me ...and also the fact that your EK is from Saschaw shop I agree with you, no mather how you clasify the EK the most important is to clear the Question whether it is Authentic or not Kiind regards Graf

Dear Uwe, Thank you for the information and the Definitions re: Original. As you noticed I had already accepted your and saschaw categorisation of the EK1 by L/12 i believe that I have in my hands A Real Wearer Copy of 1914 EK1 made by C.E.Juncker in WW2 era for the Veterans from WW1, and marked with his LDO Mark -L/12. I respect your knowlledge and experience in the field I have been collecting only for the past 4-5 years, therfore I am not in position to claim that I am more knowledgeble than you Till very recently I was collecting on my own with only contacts with few iduvidual collectors. Not long ago I felt a need to join a Club and share my interests I am learning from experiences like this one Case Closed Kind Regards Graf

Dear Speedytop, Wnen I started the Topic and asked the question Original or Reproduction, I did not have any idea that will create such reaction. i have seen, and i checked agin, few of those 1914 EK WW2 made in diferent books, Refference Sites, Sales sites and Auction sites as well No whre and no body has mentioned the word Wearer Copy. For some reosons this word is not used.by anyone and nowhere. Most of the tme the words Rare Variant are used instead. My believe was if the EK1 was made by Registerd and well known German Maker, even in WW2 era, that the EK could be considered "Original" The other reason, which could lead to this believe, is that the EK1 was made Juncker firm with association with AWS using originals parts AWS Core and WW2 Juncker Frames with his early WW2 two parts screwback I went back and read all the postings, yours and the ones by other members, very carefully. I agrre with you that, if the Decoration is not made within certain time/ rewarding frame, although it is made by a Registered maker, it is considered as WearerCopy. As it was mentioned that there is adifference between copy and copy The one I presented is considered as relativley rare and not common Wearer copy for the Veterans from WW1, who lost or damaged their Rewarded EK1s Because it is made by the famuos Carl Eduard Juncker and it is a two parts screwback variation it demands higher price than some more common EK1s, including Originals made during 1914-1924 period. If I knew all this information, perhaps my Question will be : Is this One Real EK1 made by Juncker during WW2 eara or is more recent production i.e. fake or forgery. We all know that the collector's world is spiled with many fakes and forgeries, some of the are so convicigly good that can even trick the Best Experts in the field. The reoson the Fakers are geetting more knowledgeble and the interest in EKs is increasing. I also believe that the fakers get a good help from Books like "How to avoid fakes" The authors give very good descriptions of good and bad EKs The result -the next Fake EK1 is made with all the problems rectified The same things happenes with any Decoration. As i mentioned, although I did not get a direct answer to my revised Question, from the information i gathered i believe that I have in my hands A Real Wearer Copy of 1914 EK1 made by C.E.Juncker in WW2 era for the Veterans from WW1, and marked with his LDO Mark -L/12. Believe my, we dont nave any problems with you or have any bad feelings towards you. The only thing that could be better, and perhaps will not create some tension, if you as Moderater in a very expert and calm way explained some of the facts to us. Do not forget the fact, although we have Common Interests, we are different people in many other ways. Thank you Kind Regards Graf

Dear Members, I do think that we have to stop here. Otherwise it will get out of control I am thankfull to all members who responded to the topic. If anyone felt offended I apologizze to the Anyway I found the exchange of the "hot' mails very constractive At least i know how I can clasify this EK! It is certain also that the topic " What is Original and What is Copy is quite desputable I do not mention Fake because Fake is a fake it is made to decive the potential buyer/collector Although, i did not get so far a direct answer to my question about the originality of this EK1 Replacment copy by Juncker, my special Thanks to saschaw for providing me a picture of the same cross sold on his site. When i compared mine L/12 with the one sold on his site I am more convinced tha i am holding real 1914 EK1 made by L/12 in WW2 era. I hope he will allow me to buy from his site if I like any item from his Catalogue It is a nice site. Thank you Marrauder for his chronological explanation related of the Topic..and thanks God you did not buy the EK1 for the price on the Emedals Catalogue Thank you Hagahr for deffending and standing for what you belive is correct and your support Kind Regards Graf

Hi Marrauder, If you have have the EK1 from Emedals you can help me with the EK1 I listed. If you paid this high price it was your choice Sometime we do just to get an item we really want to have in our collection. I assume that Detlev ,very smartly, did not put the word Original, however he gave description and information re: seze ,weight erc I do believe that the Experts/Dealers are human and they can make mistakes, however I also do belive that some Experts/Dealers are very smart and use the teminology in a way they cannot be blaimed anything for the item Example the saschaw coment regarding mine EK1 marked L/12.and my reply to it: It is interesting fact the way you have categorised the EK1 marked by L/12 On your site you are selling much more common 1914 EK1 WW2 era made - marked L/59, however you do not mention the word Wearer copy you use the term Seltene Variante! i.e. Rare Variant I call this fact- double standard When they sell items like this one, the smart Experts/Dealers do not mention the Worrds such as Original or a copy They use the word RARE VARIANT I noticed that in Detlev Expertises he conviniently avoids the Word Original ..just pure description about size, wight. However when the item is 100% Original he uses the Words ..This is an Original Example ot... Anyway, from all the facts collected till this moment we can say: The EK1 listed by myself is A Replacment Copy of 1914 EK1 made and marked with LDO mark L/12 by Carl Eduard Juncker in WW2 era It ia a rare copy, because it is , for sure, made with the aproval of the LDO using his strict qudelines for Originals and Copies. It was meant to replace lost or damaged 1914 EK1 by WW1 Veterans No one will dare to put the LDO mark at that time on just Theatrical Copy. Only thing we have to find out is: Whether the Cross, presented to the Forum, is correct and meets the criteria of originality to well known examples 1914 EK1 made by C.E. Juncker in WW2 era. Regarding yoor concern about Theatrical Copies,, yes you have the full right to be upset. Worse is when Theatrical copies are sold as Originals. The same aplies to the t herms Genuine Reproductiion, Museum Quality Copies and... the List is too long. Regards Graf

Dear Marrauder, Thank you for you coments. I like your statment - "I am not asking about award period, but about the originality according to the supposed production era" You got it directly to the point That was my aim of this listing. It has gone in a wrong direction. This is a selling ad for this 1914 EK1, made by Juncker in WW2 era, by a Dealer: Magnetic/Iron core, vaulted, marked 'L/12', of very fine quality make by maker Juncker, in extremely fine condition. Excellent example. (Comes with expert evaluation from D. Niemann). I do not think that Detlev will be wrong. When Detlev is involved we are talking rare piece and a high price.. I will be curious to read Detlev Niemann evaluation regarding this EK1 Regards Graf

Dear Saschaw, Thank you for your comment Yes it is not too common 1914 WW2 era made wearer's copy I could agree with this categorisation It is interesting fact the way you have categorised the EK1 marked by L/12 On your site you are selling much more common 1914 EK1 WW2 era made - marked L/59, however you do not mention the word Wearer copy you use the term Seltene Variante! i.e. Rare Variant I call this fact- double standard However, this was not the aim of my listing to argue this fact The question I am asking is whether The EK1 I listed -marked L/12 is a contemporary piece made by C.E.Juncker or recent production. The reason - I bought it as Contemporary piece made in WW2 era ,however other Dealer questioned that, therefore I would appriciate your help in sorting this question out Danke Graf

Dear Members, This posting is somehow related to the topic regarding the Gendarmerie. I collect Documens as well I have this very nice and rare Certificate - 1937 for Successfull Complition of the Gendarmery Academy I want to share it with you Regards Graf

Hi Kay, Thank you for the comments. As far i am concerned the case regarding the word "ORIGINAL" is closed. You gave me a nice information regarding the EK in one of your earlier mails It appears that Juncker has used Core made by AWS with frames from his early 1939 EK1 and stamped it with LDO Mark That means it was made after the LDO was introduced on 1-st of March 1941 I found thsi EK a very unique, because after The LDO wasi ntroduced no vaulted EKs were allowed to be produced I do not know how mane were made, however i do not believe that was in great numbers I would like to get more information regarding wheter the EK1 I posted meets the criteria for the EK1 made by C.E. Juncker during WW2 period (size,,frames, parts ,Maker Mark etc etc) To help the Forum here is additional information EK1 Size 44x44 mm Weight 21.9 g Core attracts magnet Clear Maker mark L/12 Vaulted Soldering nice a clean Small traces for rust on the core around the crown The rust is dark brown, therefore old The new rust- faked one is usually light orange colour The Dealer from Europe who I bought the EK1 from is with very good reputation The Dealer from Nort America who questioned this EK1, has sold the same one, long time ago, with garantee by Detlev Niemann Regards Graf

Hi Uwe, I noticed a mistake in my text : because did meet the time criteria Please read -because did not meet the time criteria Regards Graf

Dear Uwe, Thank you for the mai I respect your view. Evrybody has the right for their view about originalty. However if in the Collectors world something is widely accepted as "Original" depite our view we have to accept what is the common view. It is another story, whether we agree or not. It is our right to defend our view.I hope you will convince one day the collectors community to share your point of view I can undurstand your point of view, despite the EK1 being made by officially LDO aproved Maker and stamped by the company -it could be considered as so called wearer/replacment copy. because did meet the time criteria -the Period between 1914-1924 On that point I would agree with you. From Collector's point of view, you can not underestimate this EK1, because we know that LDO had very strict guidelines of aproval, including with the replacment Decorations From your point of view all top German Dealers/Experts, including Detlev Niemman, have been convincing and saling fakes/copies as originals to the collector's community for years. I do not like to drug this issue any more My question to the Forum is, regardless whether the EK is considered as original or a copy by different memebers, whether this EK has all the featurs of 1914 EK1 produced by Carl Eduard Juncker during WW2 period.i.e. whether it is contemporary piece or recent production. If you have any information and experiise about it , please share with us. Kind Regards Graf .

Dear Members, Just to let you know that the EK1 with round 3, together with another "rare bird' EK1 Schinkel Type are back where the belong --the dealer. He bought it back, offcourse not for the same price, I lost a little bit money, however I am happy. Members Beware the EK1s will be back on the market Thank you for your information and advice Kind Regards Graf

Hi Jum. Thank you for the advice The Eks are back whre they belong with the dealer, Buyers/Mmembers beware they will be back on the market. Graf

Dear UWE, I can not understad you . It is very contadictory In several contemporary catalogues you can find the word Original, e.g. St&L in 1939. But it is not meant as an original piece. It is only the word Original for the differentiation between the original size and the size for a miniature (Miniatur). You made such a big question about my "ORIGINAL" At the same time you are defending the word "ORIGINAL" in S&l 1939 Catalogue Again, no bad feeling just a friendly remark No harm done We are members of Gentemen's Club Cheer up Kind regards Graf

Dear Members, I noticed that the topic created a very hot dispute. Dear Uwe,I am afraid however you took the question very strictly. I appologize for any hard tension created. This Club is called Gentelmen's for a reason and we have to try to keep it, by all means, that way. My question was, regardless whether the EK is considered as original or a copy by different memebers, whether this EK has all the featurs of 1914 EK1 produced by Eduard Carl Juncker during WW2 period.i.e. whether it is contemporary piece or recent production. As we know the market is floaded with recently made WW2 EK2 because of the incresed interest and prices. I will not be surprised that more and more top of the range WW1 EKs will appear on the market. I agree with the members that We need a new tread for the Question What is FAKE and what is ORIGINAL. I will be not surprised if it turns to be very interesting and extremly hot topic with creative criticism not distructive one. My Question to UWE is why on the Market are so many Original KC of EK Much more many than were awarded .All are considered as Original. or claimed as such If you look strictly into this Question the answer is <IT IS ORIGINAL DECORATION ONLY IF OBTAINED DIRECTLY FROM THE RECIPIENT OR HIS FAMILY WITH ALL SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION WITH A VERY STRON PROVENANCE> Otherwise it is just a piece of metal made somewhere at certain time. Kind Regards Graf

Hi Uwe, It is a good pont Thank you. Yes, the reward period from 1914 to 1924 is corect. In this particular case "Original" means made by the Maker whose mark is on the EK, not a forgery or fake made in Estonia, China or Pakistan. It could be said that it is 1914 "genuine reproduction" by Juncker for the WW1 Veterans serving in the Wehrmacht and all other recipients or for display purposes by their families request if the first ones had perished. This particular one is in the same Group as the other EKs made by WW2 makers like Descler und Sohn and Wilhelm Deumer that are considered as "Original" Graf

Last one Graf

One more view Graf

This is the reverse view Graf

Dear Members, I would like to share this 1914 EK1 marked L/12 for Juncker Because the EK is marked with L/12 I assume it was mace after 1942 when LDo was introduced I purhesed it from a reputable German Militaria Dealer from Europe as Original and I treat iit as such one. Recently I showed it to another Dealer in North America, who nearly acussed me that is a Repro. I have posted picture of it on another Forum, however I will post more detailed ones now. Please, for your opinion and any info regarding its manifacturing. Regards Graf

New World, Very Nice Congrats! This is the Document As you see it is in German It is 210 mm x150 mm I have not seen any Bulgarian Documents for Order of Bravery from this Period. Regards Graf

Hi, Thank you for the comment I should have said "not very stong provenance". I did not buy it directly from the family Back to the topic Picture of King/Tzar Boris III with the 3-rd Class of 1941 It appears he was not a show off guy as his father Very humble one. Regards Graf

Hi, It is realy very interesting piece I have few unusual French made Orders (not only Belgium Order of Leopold) I believe that they could be privately made for French recepients I have two Leopold French made Orders, however they are from later periods. One is made by Lamaitre -an Officer Class, the crown is similar as yours The othe is made by A. Bertrand -Commander Class However, yours is much more unusual type. Regards Graf

Hi, It is in mine collection The fact is is that they have never been awarded to Bulgarian soldiers ..only to German Officers and soldiers who were involved in combat in the Balkans. I think that from the Number and the Name of the Military Unit one can check in the arhives abouth authencity of the Document i.e whether ths data on the Document is made up or it is a real presentation of the Military Unit involved in combat on the Balkans I will post full picture of the Document tomorrow Graf

I wonder how many pieces have been minted I have seen more than 12 over the years on the collectors market No question that it is one of the rarest Post WW2 award The marked 14 Karat(583) forGold seems to be the rarest. I have heard that are single pieces 22 Karat Gold I have one unmarked ( Ihave never tested it I do not like to damage the surface) I nearly purhesed marked 583 one couple of years ago A dealer in Germany had two for sale at the same time?! Graf