tifes

Hi Jock, I wasn’t buying anything, it´s miles away from my field of interest (Austria-Hungary). I was just being asked to put it on this forum to figure it out. It´s obviously the same cross but I don´t know any “Xtender”, probably we have common friends. Everything´s clear, it is just fake. Regards, tifes

Hi everyone, Would you be so kind to identify this decoration? It seems to have something to do with Schalburg Cross. At least it shares common signs with it. Every answer is appreciated. Regards, tifes

True...be aware, it`s fake. Hands off !!!!

Hi Jason, I don’t want to spoil your joy about the decoration, but what was said/written by Enzo (Elmar Lang) is absolutely true. This is so-called Honor Silver Medal of Red Cross, which was given for merit or financial donation for those people contributing to war effort of the Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy in hinterland. Honor Silber Medal with War Decoration (enameled green wreath around) was designated for those who had been directly connected with war activities. This is definitely Silver grade but made of Kriegsmetall, common/non-precious metal, silver-plated. First impressions till approximately mid of 1915 had been made of the real silver, hallmarked and usually with maker´s mark. This is later production, 1916 onwards. Honor Bronze Medal is lower grade and it was made of bronze since the beginning till the end of the Great War. Please find two pictures attached. First is showing Honor Silver Medal of Red Cross – hallmark and maker´s mark clearly visible on the suspension arch and second one displays the whole collection of Red Cross decorations (Merit Star still missing, if someone knows where to find it for reasonable price, just let me know )… Honor Bronze Medal on the far right second row, in the neighborhood (first to right) with Honor Silver Medal. Regards, tifes (Tom)

Anton Schmidt, Zugsführer, GegArtReg 4 (mountain artillery regiment), awarded Golden Bravery Medal on 17th April 1915. Photo taken by the occasion of 25th marriage anniversary (so-called silver marriage anniversary). Really unique photo of WWI Austrian hero.

The most impressive picture for me it`s definitely 2nd one from left in the first post. Picture is showing man in his 40s in the uniform of Austrian Bundesheer till 1933. I cant recognize the rank but he is either higher NCO or lower ranked officer (Lt., ObLt.). He is having ribbon of Iron Cross 1914 II. Class in his button hole, but mostly the Golden Bravery Medal. This bravery medal is older issue, hence 1849 or 1859. I can`t see it properly in all details but head of the Emperor FJI is clearly heading to the left. This might seem strange but here is a clarification for this. It`s quite simple. At the beginning of the Great War many, if not all, Golden Bravery Medals awarded to soldiers and NCOs had been coming from "old reserves" which were exploited till spring 1915 and only afterwards the Golden Bravery Medals with portrait of FJI (heading to right) started to be awarded. Very interesting and rare picture indeed. Regards, tifes

thank you wraith42, very much appreciated! It seems that`s him. Could you pls tell me the source? I suppose it`s k.k. Landwehr Schematism. Is there something more stated about him...like his career, exact date when medals/decoration had been awarded to him? Thank you once again. Regards, Tifes

Dear colleagues, I would like to ask you to have a look into yours military schematism books or other sources to help me to better identify a medical doctor officer in 28th Infantry Landwehr Regiment in Pisek (city in South Bohemia). He had to serve as Chefarzt (probably officially rank of Regimentsarzt, maybe higher) in the year 1904 in the before-mentioned regiment. I have received an info that his possible name was Heinrich Till (or Tyll), probably of Jewish origin. Any help appreciated. Thank you in advance. Regards, Tifes

Well, if it´s "A" on the rim then it´s silver. No doubt about it. I didn't have a chance to see it. I checked only the suspension and that seemed to be "clear" "A" in the circle is the hallmark of Vienna Assay Office for precious metals (silver, gold). It probably means that this decoration was made by state-run producer. That one which is in my collection was made by Mayer´s und Soehne company (V.M. as maker´s mark) and it´s hallmarked by "Head of the Greyhound" (Windhundkopfpunze) for silver of 800/1000 purity. Both marks are on the suspension arch.

Hello Rogi, this is a paper box for silver or bronze Red Cross Honor medal for Merits. It´s definitely medal without War Decoration so it was awarded to someone who financially contributed to A-H Red Cross during the Great War and hence he (it was a man, women would get the medal on the bow ribbon) was obliged to pay 300 Kronen (at once or 3 x 100 Kronen in 3 years) plus tax of 20 Kronen (paid only once when awarded). Some better positioned citizens or state officials did it very often to demonstrate theirs loyalty to the Emperor, State and Army in war. This medal is later-war issue. It´s not made of silver but just of regular metal which was silvered. Silver ones are quite rare with less than 400 pieces issued and all of them are hallmarked. I do not see any hallmark on your medal (on the suspension). Silver was only used at the beginning of the war and later on it was replaced by regular non-precious metal. This is such piece (or at least I think so) but it´s in very good condition, virtually mint and probably it wasn't worn at all. Paper box definitely belongs to that medal. Everything is correct as it should be. Nice addition to the collection indeed. Regards, Tifes

Well, as Elmar Lang wrote...not easy to give definitive answer but I have to second what he stated. At the end of the War the resources of the Monarchy became very tense. It concerned everything, not only decorations (silvered bronze and other metals had been used instead of silver, gold wasn't used since 1915 anymore) but also the cases. This is typical late-war paper box (Schachtel) used for MVM Karl. It can`t definitely rule out MVM FJI, but I would incline to Karl issue too. Regards, Tifes

Hi Valter, All MMTOs had been always awarded by so-called MMTO Order Chapter. It was body or ad hoc institution which was in the charge of evaluation of all requests for MMTO. Request for MMTO had to be always submitted by the candidate himself. This officer has been usually encouraged by the commanding officers to do so and they usually provided the evidence for his bravery. There was no exemption of this rule if we do not count the decisions of the Emperor to award MMTO without any consultation with Order Chapter. It happened time to time. Emperor, as the highest Sovereign, could do it but still even after such decision of the Emperor, the Order Chapter officially declared the award in the particular Promotion. Order Chapter was presided by the Emperor, other members had been chosen army officer. All of them had to be MMTO recipients. When the War ended there were still too many proposals on the table and Order Chapter summoned 12 times (1921 to 1931) to make its decisions about them. Feldmarschall Conrad von Hoetzendorf was acting as the President interim of the Order Chapter, this function was taken over by Erzherzog Joseph later on. After the dead of former Emperor the situation deteriorated and even new proposals had been submitted for evaluations. Some of the MMTO awards of those times are really doubtful. Officers of the new Bundesheer had been in mutual competition. Altogether 75 MMTO awards had been adopted by the Order Chapter in the period of 1921 to 1931 and all of them had been Knight Crosses. There wasn´t any award ceremony held and any certificate issued. Recipient was just informed, he came to the Order Office in Vienna and the decoration with written evidence was given to him. Between 1922 to 1926 all recipients got just the simple notification that they had been awarded by MMTO Knight cross but they didn’t receive any decoration. They bought it usually privately in gilded silver/bronze from Rothe und Neffe. This practice was changed after 1926 when official state authorities agreed to provide MMTO knight crosses from the deposit of Arsenal (Heergeschichtliches Museum) where the MMTO decorations had been stored since 1886. All of them are returned pieces as it was the duty after the dead of recipient. One more information. When the Order Chapter didn’t find enough evidence or just assumed that there was act of bravery but not enough for MMTO award, it could also decide to award the recipient by any other decoration. Golden Bravery Medals for officers “served” usually as a “lower substitute” for MMTO knight cross. Majority of them had been awarded after 1918. This wasn’t the rule and sometimes even other decoration had been awarded instead of MMTO knight cross, usually Leopold Order – knight cross, Order of the Iron Crown III. Class or even Silver Bravery Medal for officers. Last MMTO knight crosses and other decoration had been officially awarded in 1931, 13 years after the end of the Empire. Regards, Tifes

Hi Mark, it` s collectors copy. Original UB k.u.k. badges are extremely rare because it had to be returned back immediately when the service at U-boot ended. There are some very nice private made badges, sometimes even made of silver with dedications but it`s later production of 20s and 30s. This is just obvious copy with faked B.S.W. hallmark, which is also imitated in many qualifications badges. Be careful when you see something like that. Regards, t.

Hi, you should have shown it at once. This is the exact case as "Elmar Lang" was referring to. This decorationn is sewn on the original breast sash and I am really sorry for confusing you. Grosskreuz without sash and without long ring as shown on your first picture was "my starting point". You have got original Grand cross of FJO, Gebrueder Resch about 1875 (this type should be already hallmarked) in original sash and there is nothing to add from my side, except...Congratulation to the beautiful piece! Regards,

well, not everything is black and white and I agree with "Elmar Lang" about Grosskreuz. When the long ring is sewn on the original sash it`s OK but when it is sold separately without sash and it`s presented as Grosskreuz decoration but without long ring then it`s just incomplete decoration without ring. In such a case I would ask for lower price. Nobody can prove that it was really Grosskreuz once. Concerning open to the rear long ring I have Komtur FJO on the war neckband made of gold (hallmarked, V.M. production) with closed ring. It seems that decoration is WWI production but in gold not in gilded bronze. Long ring is in the style of those bronze one (not entirely in all details) but it`s in gold too. Regards, Tifes

Thank you Yankee, all what you wrote is really helpfull. I have never had problems with originality of this decoration, because the production finesse is great. I just wanted to know the possible origin. It seems so that story about Saxon officer and War of 1866 doesn´t sound very real. I didn´t know that Austrian Rothe won the contract in those years for swords. Austria-Hungary introduced sword for personal bravery against enemy in cases of some decorations (not all of them) only in December 1916. Swords had been placed on band or on the decoration itself (it depends on). So I couldn´t compare swords (from Rothe or anyone else) of some of my Austrian decorations from that period with this Saxon one, because there is nothing to compare. Your information is therefore very helpfull. To conclude somehow coming what you and others wrote: It´s original decoration of the 1st. Model in gilded silver which was returened probably after the dead of recipient back to Order´s Chancellory and afterwards bestowed to another recipient in war (1914-1918???) but already with swords (Saxon production with wide guards). It might be also 1900-1912 production with swords added later on for the same recipient for his bravery/meritorious acts in War 1914-1918.

Thank you "Yankee" for your opinion. It might be the case indeed. I have also tried to figure out whether the story about Saxon officer and 1866 War might be true.

Hi, once again thank you for all info that you have shared with me. I really appreciate it. Imperial German states are not my area. I now something little but it cannot be compared to your knowledge. I am aimed at Austria-Hungary and I was also using parallel to this decoration which probably doesn't work in all aspects. In Austria-Hungary all decoration of Orders before 1914 had been made of gold and in the WWI period mostly in gilded bronze as gold became de facto source of war financing. Decorations in silver had been privately purchased pieces. If they had been made till 1918 they are considered original. This is the common case with Franz Joseph Order, Iron Crown Order and Leopold Order. Such a pieces are usually called "second piece" (in german Zweitstück or Tragestück). The term "wearer`s copy" is not used indeed. Might it be somehow possible to get this Knight cross, I. class with swords in silver directly from Order`s Chancellery (or any other authority responsible for awarding)? In Austria-Hungary such a possibility would be excluded. Regulations were strict and all decoration had to be of gold. If this is the case also in Kingdom of Saxony then I have privately purchased Knight cross I. class with swords but it must be seen as original. Thank you also for shedding some light concerning "S" mark. Concerning case, as I wrote above, I am sorry "Stogieman" but I am not able to recognize types of cases. Nevertheless I thank you for photos and info about it. You helped me a lot. Thanx a lot. Regards, tifes

Hello, as I know, there is no difference between Grosskreuz and Komturkreuz FJO decoration (Kleinod) and this type of the ring you can find on pre-war gold pieces. If the "enlogated ring" is missing then the decoration is not complete. This concerns both grades, Komtur or Grand Cross. Regards, tifes

Thank you for all responds. There is a marking "S" on the bottom cross arm and the weight is 27,5g. By "wearer`s copy" I have meant the original decoration of time but privately bought by recipient. This was common practice in Austria-Hungary and all silver made any Order`s decorations are always of this origin. Reason was quite simple. Originally awarded piece was always in 18k. gold and it was well preserved and worn only by unique occasions. So I thought that this might be the same case. Decoration belongs to one of my friends and it is in his private collection. It was acquired many years ago from the very old collection. There is a story behind that decoration was awarded to one Saxon officer who was active combatant in Austrian-Prussian War of 1866. He settled down in Prague afterwards. This is obviously 1st model with painted central medallion. That one on the attached photos from "Stogieman" is 2nd model with coats of arms put on the medallion. It should be WWI production. The only thing that I cannot figure out by "my decoration" is the fact that it´s made of silver not gold as it was common.

Hello gents, I would like to figure out the exact origin of this decoration. It's clearly Civil Order of the Kingdom of Saxony, knight cross I. class with swords (for natives, Inländer). It should be the 1st Model till 1912 (painted medaillon) but it`s not in Gold but in Silver gilded. I have got the information that this decoration was made of gilded Silver in the period 1905-1911, but maybe this information is not correct. So basically there are four options: 1. just collector´s copy (it doesn´t seem so, enamels and overall production are in great quality) 2. original decoration of 1st Model made of Silver in period 1905-1911 3. original decoration of 1st Model but so-called "second piece" (before 1905???) made by recipient privately for everyday wear (Zweit - bzw. Tragestück) 4. original decoration of 2nd Model made after 1912 (probably during WWI) This is not really my cup of tea so I turn upon you with the hope. Every respond is appreciated. Thank you in advance Regards, tifes

Hi Igor, It` s larger miniature of the Order of the Iron Crown III (Orden der Eisernen Krone - EKO III) class on the small chain which was attached to civil cloth for some more formal occasions (black-tie occasions usually). It was probably worn by some higher positioned civil servant or retired higher officer. Concerning the higher officer it was more or less automatically given to him when he attained the rank of colonel and he successfully led his regiment for the period of at least 3 years. Civil service was too diverse, so difficult to say what he might be at the time when he received this order but it had to be considerable high rank (equal to that of colonel in military). To the decoration itself: Case is the product of Vincenz Mayer and Soehne, one of the biggest order and jeweler makers of old A-H Empire. 2nd part of 19. Century was the period of its greatest shine. Company ceased to existed in early 20s. It was also traditional maker of mini-chains, mini-collanes and miniatures. I assume that “V M” on the ring of decoration is maker`s mark for Vincenz Mayer. I see there probably “A”, which is official A-H mark of HMA Wien (Central Assay Office in Vienna) for precious metals (gold, silver). It`s good quality lager miniature (something like 31-35mmx16-18mm). I do not see hallmark (I can’t recognize it) but I assume that it might be traditionally made of 18 k gold. Mini-chain – that hallmark is old A-H hallmark (1872-1922) for 14k gold called “Fuchskopf”, Head of the Fox. Maker`s mark “F-S” on the rosette (this part was attached to the button hole) of the mini-chain…honestly don’t know…maybe some (for me unknown) maker`s mark of the Souval company, another jewelry and order maker??? It`s very nice piece and “red tarnish” on the old gold is more sign of its originality than something to worry about. It`s just the chemical process of gold oxidation. Regards, tifes (Tomas)

It´s not replacement, for sure. Well, simplified version. Gold issues had been replaced by those made of gilded bronze. Officially awarded GTMs had marking "Bronze" on the rim. Other ones,sold by Hauptmünzamt Wien (Main Sterling Office Vienna) for private purchase, had rim markings "Bronze HMA" or "HMA Unecht". Both are official versions with ellipse-shaped suspension struck together with medal. Your medal is classic Silver Bravery Medal I. Class, "modified" to Gold one by gilding and brazed suspension. Weight (circa 17.4 g) proofs it. Regards, tifes

1st medal Silver Bravery Medal FJI II. Class; post WWI period, it has German style suspension. I would say late 30s but struck in good quality in silver. 2nd Medal it should be Gold Bravery Medal FJI but the ellipse-shaded suspension (Henkeloese) is obviously brazed, gilding seems to be new, no markings on the rim. I dont think it´s cast but probably Silver Bravery Medal FJI I.Class (silver or white metal) newly gilded and with upgraded suspension. It has nothing to do with the original one. Very bad collectors copy or fake. You choose.

Congratulation. This is how MDZ for 50 years should be looking like. Original piece, no doubt about it. And yes there is a list of all awarded officers available. Regards, tifes