JimZ

And oh....Hunyadi... I love the first two posts with a passion. Well done on the items and on the pic itself.

Looks like EK1 and EK2 (for non combattants) in the centre.... Cross on the right has me puzzled too - looks like a halfbreed consisting of a St George Cross on a 50 Year Anniversary of Victory over Germany from the distance and erm....focus....nah cannot be that!! Wearing my computer specs could not help me this time round. Jim

Gerd.... I'm a lookin and I'm a liking! Jim

[attachmentid=57224] [attachmentid=57225] No comments required apart from the fact that some sellers 'forget' to mention its a copy or fake...... But the quality says it all....at least some times its easy! Magnigication works wonders when you cannot handle the piece!

[attachmentid=57219] This Order of the Mother Heroine comes with its small award booklet. Nice to have a documented order but I detect some inconsistencies here. 1) I have observed that whereas the Variation 1 stars are the same size as the silver rayed back, Variations 2 and 3 have a gold star which is slightly larger. This means that when flipped over, you should be able to see the tips of the gold stars on variations 2 and 3. In this piece it is clear that the star is too small for these variations. With such a high serial number, it should have a larger gold star. 2)The suspension in my opinion is neither completely consistent with a var 2 or var 3 (should be a 3 based on serial no.) but I have not seen enough pieces first hand to know if there were many different attachments for the pin apart from the ones consistent with the known variations. 3) The mint mark also seems to be stamped (although one cannot be 100pct sure from the original pics but if this was the case it would be an inconsistency). I have strong suspicions that if this piece is at all original, the gold star may been replaced with a slightly smaller non gold star and the non tarnished reverse may be evidence of polished reverse (seeing the booklet we would all know why!) But then again, some OMH appear to almost have been manufactured from scratch...... My call based on the high serial number and the size of the star.....fake!

[attachmentid=57186] [attachmentid=57188] Another commonly faked medal...and I admit a hard one to make a call on as the quality of the obverse is in fact pretty outstanding. I do not like what appears to be a slight pebbling around the lettering as well as around other parts of the obverse on a surface that is supposed to be otherwise smooth. The miners hand seems a touch too clumsy. The suspension should be made as part of the ring and is usually flat on both sides. It is unclear whether this suspension ring is welded on or not but it does not look right on both sides of it. The ring surronding the edge on the medal is also not as cleanly defined as it should be. The reverse of the medal is also hard to call as this medal is slightly pebbled on the rear which would conceal any unnatural marks from casting. The only faults I can find with the reverse is the lack of definition on the ring around the edge which seems totally flat on the upper parts of the medal and only slightly more defined at the bottom. Moreover, the edge does not always seem to be perfectly circular. A tough one to call, but on account of the texture of the obverse the possible cast marks and the quanlity of the suspension ring I would not put my money on it.

[attachmentid=57160] [attachmentid=57161] Partisan medal 1st class - Another common fake medal one often sees from time to time. I sadly miss the partisan medals in my collection. The obverse lacks the crisp detail that you would expect around the faces. If you study the profiles you would also notice subtle differences from documented originals. The medal is also completely missing the raised rim ring that goes around the banner edging the medal. I think the ring on this particular piece is a good attempt although it still lacks the quality to it. I am not sure if the rings were usually welded in an upturned U shape as opposed to a full circular ring. What should be tarnish above Stalin's head are probably burn marks form the welding/soldering of the suspension ring. The lettering on the reverse of this piece once again lacks crispness round the base of the lettering. Whereas one could expect some wear and tear from wearing on the reverse, the letters seem to lack the relief and definition they should have. Also the thickness of certain letters is inconsistent with the original. Lets take two letters as examples - the "Ш" in "HAШУ" and the "Д" in "POДИHУ" whereby the upright arms of the "Ш" are too thin and the triangular space within the "Д" is far too large on this piece when compared to documented originals. Also the vertical file markings round the rim and the uneven edge around the obverse rim (sometimes almost departing from a circular shape!!!) do not help this piece either.

[attachmentid=57136] [attachmentid=57143] Medal for Distinction in guarding the State Border of the USSR. - Where does one start with this medal! The reverse shows the inferior quality of this medal - The suspension ring is as wrong as it comes as is the rasied rim aroung the edge of the medal showing mould or file marks. The surface is stippled and there is no tarnishing on this heavy metal medal as one would expect on a silver/nickel silver or silver plated medal as per var 1,3 and 2 of this medal respectively. The obverse also lacks detail and the quality and crispness of the border guard, mountains and the border marker leaves so much to be desired. The surface of the medal which should be smooth is anything but! The suspension ring looks as bad from the obverse as from the reverse. A desirable medal indeed - but very faked as well of course!!

[attachmentid=57119] [attachmentid=57120] [attachmentid=57121] Fake Medal for the Development of the Petrochemical Complex of Western Siberia. Not the most common medal to come by and probably one of the hardest of the restoration, construction and development set to come by (together with the Development of the Non Black Earth Region of RSFSR). This medal lacks the crisp detail seen in originals especially in areas such as the towers. The lettering also lack crispness and the surface is very revealing as to the fact that such a medal is not orignal. Also note the ring is completely wrong as it should be rounded and made as part of the medal. Once again, buy as a gap filler if you please but not as an original.

[attachmentid=57116] [attachmentid=57114] [attachmentid=57115] And of course detail of reverse. Uzbekistan MOOP...I did say desirable no? But not on that quality of medal!

[attachmentid=57110] [attachmentid=57111] [attachmentid=57112] Note the grainy texture of the medal and lack of crisp detail. The silver/gold plating which is not....and the enamel what also is notl

[attachmentid=57100] [attachmentid=57102] [attachmentid=57101] 3 service medals almost looking like the normal service medals we all know (and some of us love to go after). However what should be gold and silver plating does not stand up to observation. Neither does the enamel on the 1st class. Some of these medals are less common then others and they are of course starting to be copied and sold. Its ok to buy as a gap filler as long as one knows what he is buying. Of course, there would be a lot for gap filling if ones has to fill the gaps for all the variations of MVD and MOOP service medals. Closer detail pics of these copies/fakes/repros in the next posts.

Ok...some of the fake stuff going around at the moment: [attachmentid=57092][attachmentid=57093][attachmentid=57094] I notice the following: Reverse: 1) Lack of serial number 2) Engraved mintmark like V1 but much smaller than is supposed to be 2) Larger than usual rivets 3) Shoddy welded on suspension ring at 12 o'clock should be made as part of the medal 4) Attachments holding pin to suspension rounded at the ends as opposed to being straight lines Obverse: 1) Goldplating (if?! on star) and on suspension (almost looks like paint) 2) Clumsy lettering 3) Notice how thin the suspension ring really is

I think its hard to say whether an RKKA medal has come with its genuine docs or not....unless of course there is the matching serial number on the screwback plate and even then....screwpaltes are interchangeable. As I know it all the XX year medals were issued with the rectangular suspension and later converted by awardees themselves in 1943 when the regulations were changed. Sadly, most would have gone onto a 5 sided suspension with no screwback plate and no serial number....and hence became close to anonymous. However, with the story of your dealer switching medals, you can rest assured that what u have is, as Ed says "a marriage made in hell". Of course you have booklet and medal and can even pull it off that way but I find its a pity when u own something that you know a priori is not the proper medal. I would not buy from such a dealer if I knew he was playing around with medals unless I am sure of what i am buying! If you want feedback regarding whether or not the medal may be genuine I suggest you put much closer zoomed pics of obverse and reverse and maybe some members may volonteer to voice their opinions. Christian mentions valid points but I think usually 1) the "relief" under the enemal and 2) the "precision of detail" are usual noticeable giveaways. However do bear in mind that this is a vary desirable medal and as always with such medals, highly faked. And the quality of fakes is getting better by the day. So its hard to really tell from a pic in any case. Jim

Mebbe someone might want to look up the book listing our beloved HSU's for any defecting to Afghanistan. That should really narrow it down...... Mebbe Ed is right, the jakcet is all that is left of our "hero" after the Afghani women got to him! love4history...no offence at my comments please. Just that this jacket is not history. Don't love it. Jim

Oh and another thing. I have same epualettes.. (My uncle father was Oberfeldwebel with Flak regiment based in german and later north italy where he was captured as a POW) Are those the right epualettes for the uniform. Red piping with sliver bullion thread looks correct (although for some reason I also have a pair with gold bullion thread) - But they kinda look wrong on that unform. Like I said...I am not an expert on all things german..... so its a chance to learn something new.... Regards Jim

By no means an expert especially on German stuff but that breast eagle looks wrong to me. I had a similar one to that and as far as I know it was a DAK Tropical side cap badge. I always thought that the breast eagle badge followed the outline of the eagle closely. I might be wrong though! Anyone?

Well Dave...I said it was a "teaser trailer" .... I just did not know how right i was on the first of the two words!! Good one. Jim

Dave, Thanks for the teaser trailer.... (for lack of a drooling smiley) Jim

Maybe I missed unless I can be pointed to the document, can anyone please post scans of a medal certificate. What I am looking for in particular (but please not exclusively if you want to pst more )is a Goznak 1945 version ideally having Bravery and Combat service. This is the one has the black lettering on the front (I believe earlier versions had gold lettering). Also, how many pages should this doc contain and till what date (that you know of) where these booklets still being used. Is 1947 on a 1945 version plausible? Great thread. One of the Red Bible's drawbacks is lack of information on award booklets....but then again, it would probably have ended up being twice it thickness.... Having said that....we'd all have bought it anyways! Thanks guys, Jim

My thoughts on the books - The Comprehensive Guide..... is essential to anyone looking to collect and understand the history and development of various variations of medals and orders, the sequence of variations, awarded etc etc. However we are speaking about little more then collectable medals and apart from the 'regulations' of each medal there is little or no 'personal/historical experience' (if I may call it that!). Echoes of War on the other hand brings out the personal heroic stories of a handful of individuals per order. I do not think that the two books can be compared. Form the "Comprehensive Guide....." I learnt to start better undertsanding the awards I was collecting. Echoes of war brought to me the stories behind the medals and a drove home the understanding that a medal is not just a collectable piece of history but a real historical collectible to not only be researched but also treasured and respected. I give them a thumbs up any time and honestly, have a real soft spot for both books ! We need more such publications...and should the an updated "Comprehensive Guide..." ever be printed to reflect 10 more years of "glasnost" and discovery in the field of russian awards.....well count me in for a copy! Jim

Sure...why not......we can put up general fakes like say odessa, sevastopol medals or list numbered orders and pics....anything will do as long as we can organise. Suggestions welcome as well as posts.... wanna dig some up when i find the time.

Its at its real very start asking for people to feed it with info:D But here it is anyways...... http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=11742 Jim

Hey Dolf, Yup. Buy the piece. Shove it in a cupboard and sell it in 1 or two years time in the hope that some unaware collector thinks he is making a bargain and scoops it up. Its for this very reason that I have started the fake order/medal database. If such item are logged it can help future collectors learn. For now I took the initiative to try to also link a number of old threads with info on real and fake medals and orders and order so that the vast info is alread much more manegeable. Hopefully, as new items come along, members will post them onto this thread and it can become more of a general database. We'll see if this idea takes off! Jim

For the sake of completeness, the ORBs in post #45 sold for the handsome price of USD 762. That's gotta hurt even if this is a mere fraction of what an original 3rd and 4th award would cost (especially if accompanied by their order book)!!! Jim