W McSwiggan

Thanks Daniel & Rick. I had forgotten about the "Rettungs" Thread and never saw the last entries. Looks like a good book goes on my shopping list!

Thanks Mike. Can you cite references - might like to obtain if available.

I have no references spelling out bestowal of this award for multiple lifesaving acts. Limiting myself to the later days of the Empire, my appreciation is: subsequent awards were recognized by ? the Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen, Silber am Bande der Rettungs-medaille the Kreuz des Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen, Silber am Bande der Rettungs-medaille the Roten Adler Orden am Bande der Rettungs-medaille the Kronen Orden am Bande der Rettungs-medaille. What I do not understand is: how the determination was made as to the selection. If driven to speculate, I would guess that the second award to an individual in the status below officer is the Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen, Silber and third award is the Kreuz des Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen. Is this correct? I am even more confused about officers. Is the second award the Kronen-Orden and third the Roten Adler-Orden? If so, what grade? Thanking any and all in advance.

Not to be confrontational but? Recommend going easy on that one. I?ve known good soldiers who bought and wore these out of simple pride in their service to their country. Not heroes ? not greats - just soldiers and proud of it. Recommend restraint before branding all wearers ?Walts?. I would call many simply good citizens who answered with pride when called. Not West Point rings ? not airborne rings ? not whatever. If I were a ?Walt? I be buying something more prestigious.

Perhaps if you threw in some Epsom Salts to sweeten the deal?

Wonderful - thank you very much for sharing these insights Daniel. Regards, Wayne

Thanks for the excellent information Daniel. Think I was vaguely aware but the slowness of promotions in the Imperial Army was shockingly slow. Might I ask if you are able to expand this information to the "threshold of politics (general officer grades)" at the higher ranks? My appreciation is that one could not directly enter the general staff but first had to serve in the "line" and then attend special schooling before entry "iG". What was the normal rank for entry in school and rank upon acceptance to the General Staff"? How did line versus iG compare for time in grade as Major, Oberstleutnant and Oberst? It has just occurred to me that I've somewhat Hijacked the original intent for this thread and for that I apologize. I will start one if necessary. Is there a good reference for this information other than studying patterns in the rank lists?

Thanks for the information Rick. With a load of eye candy like that - dirty fingers or not he was either really good or really connected. "Von" & Johanniter suggest "C" - all the above... Death has a way of messing up a promising career! Must say - Major in 20 years was most likely not a record! And they call them the good old days!

Hi, Would love a little more information on our ?Christmas Tree?. Can anyone list all of Axel von Platen?s stuff? Looks like he was popular in Mecklenburg! Prussians seemed to like him and I see Thuringia in the mix as well as Schaumburg and all three Hanseatic Crosses. Was he a staff officer and hence in all the right places for trick-or-treat (to continue our holiday metaphor) or simply a stud? Thanx in advance. wem

What was the end-of-war gong tally if I might ask???

In my experience (US Army at least), multiple awards were not made for the same action. The exception is if the recipient were wounded during the action in which case a Purple Heart along with an award for heroism would be made. The Army also made a practice of bestowing ?impact? awards during Vietnam. These awards were made under the circumstances of exceptionally heroic actions deserving immediate recognition. The awarding authority could immediately bestow an interim award to assure that ?context? was not lost. Often the award was a Silver Star when a Medal of Honor or Distinguished Service Cross was contemplated. The processing time for these high awards was so long that the sense was that an interim award was appropriate. If the higher award was granted, the lower would then be rescinded. We had a scout pilot who was involved in a very dramatic rescue when Loc Ninh was over run prior to my arrival in country. As I recall, he was ?impact awarded? a Silver Star and recommended for a Medal of Honor. After review, he was granted the Distinguished Service Cross in lieu of the Medal of Honor. I can not testify if this was the practice in the Navy, Marine Corps, Coast Guard or Air Force. I also do not know if this practice is still used today.

Dave, You are very welcome and I am glad when I can contribute a little ? doesn?t happen too often. This stuff can get pretty murky especially if you don?t have an extensive reference library. I can not testify to Herr Hamelman?s reputation in the community but I assume that the reference cited is reliable. wem

About the RAO 1st Class versus Grand Cross awards to SAO recipients ? some clarification seems to be in order. These orders are of almost equal antiquity ? the SAO?s foundation is in 1701 and the RAO in 1705. I have no statute reference for the SAO but it would appear that this order (as the premier Prussian Hausorden) was stable from the outset. I say this cautiously because I do not know if the collar was a later addition. The orders were linked as of 12 June 1792. This linkage entitled the SAO recipient to the RAO. This same statute made the RAO a prerequisite for future SAO bestowal. The Grand Cross of the RAO was established in 1861 and this became the SAO entitlement. Hence ? prior to 1861, the 1st class of the RAO was, in fact the grade linked to the SAO. I base these statements on Hamelman?s ?Of Red Eagles and Royal Crowns? ? his English language translation of the governing statutes of the Prussian Red Eagle and Crown orders.

Au contraire, Herr Research. Rittmeister von Richthofen was a cavalryman who became an aviator, hence a truly superior life form. I hasten to add the self-evident and highly logical extension of this fact which places Air Cavalrymen at the apex of the food chain...

Am I the only one who, based on that photograph feels badly for the horses???

It could be worse...

Not trying to be chippy but O?Connor (Volume 7) credits Rittmeister Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen with all three Hanseatic crosses. Not suggesting that he was "normal" or the owner of this chain because that is obviously not the case...

I'm much better now! Thanks Rick. All Divisions accounted for...!

I find this information to be very confusing. Good news ? this information accounts for all the Regular Divisions involved. Bad news ? The mentioned National Guard Divisions (5) are the only involved that were excluded and I was able to find campaign credits for them courtesy of the National Guard Educational Foundation NGEF). In campaign credits, I could find no credits for ?Defensive Sector? for any units. I note that all listed in the original reference allowing bars for Muese Argonne also were credited with the Defensive Sector. This leads to a tentative conclusion that they went hand-in-hand and the absence of credit on the NGEF list does not constitute exclusion. There were 2 National Army Divisions ? the 80th & 92nd that were excluded. The 82nd Div. was listed 4 times! The US Army Center of Military History (CMH) credits the 82nd Division only with St. Mihiel & Muese-Argonne for campaign credit. Throw in the Defensive sector for good measure and that still leaves a hole for the Aisne-Marne. The 79th Division is listed twice but not in the running. The 80th (credited with only Somme & Muese-Argonne by CMH) & 92nd Divisions were not listed. As these were not significant combatant units, I will disregard them for now. To my mind ? excluding the possibility of higher headquarters (1st Army or the Corps) ? you can only narrow this medal down to the 1st, 2nd & 3rd Divisions ? assuming a replacement not present for Aisne, Montdidier-Noyen or Champaogne-Marne. Throw in the Defensive Sector confusion and you can add the 26th and 42nd Divisions to the list of suspects. The second medal seems to certainly be from the 2nd Division unless from a higher HQ. I give up!

Part of the issue here is without knowing entitlements of the "missing divisions", crediting this medal to a given division will remain suspect because of incomplete data. I will try to find campaign credits for these units assuming that credit is equal to entitlement to the bar.

Could I ask for some clarification? I claim no expertise on the subject of Campaign bars for the Victory Medal so there may be a simple explanation. I am puzzled about the absence from the list of credits of the 26th Division and the 42nd Division. Both saw extensive combat. As I looked to see if the issue was National Guard (as both these divisions were), I note that the following were listed: 27th Div., 29th Div., 30th Div., 31st Div., 34th Div., 35th Div., 36th Div., 37th Div., 38th Div., 39th Div., 40th Div. & 41st Div. and the following were not: 26th Div. (as mentioned), 28th Div., 32nd Div., 33rd Div. & the 42nd Div. (also mentioned). All of these excluded divisions saw significant action. Can anyone enlighten?

Could I get a little help please? Having trouble identifying all the gongs ? must be old eyes? Here?s what I think I see but there are spaces ? would someone please help the rookie? If you see errors beyond the question marks ? feel free? 1. Preu?en EK2 2. Preu?en KHHO 3. W?rttemberg MVO 4. W?rttemberg KO 5. W?rttemberg FO 6. W?rttemberg Lifesaving based on Daniel?s comment? 7. ? 8. Preu?en RAO 9. Bayern MVO 10. Hamburgisches Hanseatenkreuz 11. ? MVK Thanks, wem

Nothing to contribute other than this has always been one of my favorites. Find it particularly amusing as the British monarchs used to use this order to demonstrate their prerogatives by bestowal on British subjects.

Not that this thread is targeting this the rarified ranks of generals but... just to round it out - a general may remain on active duty up to 40 year of cumulative service or five years in grade whichever is later or a maximum age of 64 by regulation. 5 stars of which we are fresh out - remain on active duty for life. Currently - the last man standing from the West Point Class of 1969 is General William (Scott) Wallace, Commanding General of TRADOC. He lead the charge across southern Iraq to Saddam's house as V Corps Commander wearing 3 stars. File under "fun facts"

von Watter per Hamelman 158. von Watter, Frhr. Theodor, General of Infantry, Commander, XIII, Army Corps. (Awarded the Pour le Merite Order in recognition of outstanding leadership and distinguished military planning and successful operations during fighting along the Yser canal in stopping the British during their first Somme offensive.) Direct quotation from The History of the Prussian Pour le Merite Order, Volume III, 1888 - 1918 by William E. Hamelman (page 463). I own all three volumes and find them useful. I can not testify to the author's reputation. The volumes were published by Matthaus Publishers, P.O. Box 1361, Dallas, TX 75221, 1986. I bought my copies from the Toy Soldier - a small book store and military miniature shop outside the gates of West Point (Highland Falls, NY). On my last contact with them, they stated that they no longer deal in books.