W McSwiggan

Uniform on right is of the West Point pattern. There are other schools that use similar. Buttons are correct. As there are no "class stripes on lower sleeves, this is as issued ans worn during Plebe year for parades and formal social events during the Fall, Winter & Spring. Uniform on left looks like an Air Force Officer's with the shoulder boards incorrectly afixed to the jacket.

There is a photo of Max-Josef Schindler on page 374 of "The War Merit Cross" by Gordon Williamson & Josef Charita published by R. James Bender Publishing, San Jose, CA 95153, 2008. As this is copyrighted material, I can not - will not scan & post. I will give this book a hearty recommendation.

I defer to your eyesight! You got it right in my opinion. Have the same book but did not inspect closely enough to read the motto. Also, Nimmergut?s catalogue refers to such a star (SAO w/ ribbon of the Garter). Considered rare?

I can not see the star clearly enough to positively identify but... Pretty sure it is not Black Eagle. The Practice of entwining the ribbon of the Red Eagle aroung the star of the Crown Order or the ribbon of the Crown Order around the star of the Red Eagle was done for recipients of both. I will speculate that you are seeing a Red Eagle ribbon on the star of the crown order.

Can't agree more than I do with Doc. Generally speaking, American campaign medals tell when and where - not how long. Augmented with addenda, they can indicate campaings in theater and assault landings such as D-Day in Europe. Wording on regulations is supposed to be very precise hence numerous changes when circumstances change. Find the latest regulation and you will find your answer. This - of course - does not mean that service members always wear their stuff correctly - either due to "making a fashion statement", ignorance or departure from the service before the last change. During my 32 years I saw many officers (myself included) who wore partial racks simply because they wanted to... my favorite being a Major who chose to wear simply, the DSC, Silver Star and the DFC! Just one of many little liberties...

If read carefully, the quotation says service for 12 months any part of which was between 8 Sep 39 & 7 Dec 41. My conclusion - - if one enlisted or entered active duty on 6 Dec 41 or departed active duty on Sep 9 '39 following a 12 month term of service he/she would be entitled. I know of no prewar enlistment for less than 12 months. Can't make definitive statement about the American Campaign but... there were significant anti-submarine combat operations and I suspect many participants never got overseas - one would think that this would have generated a change to the "overseas clause".

Of course - this officer could be a doctor...

Here?s what I ?see?. Significant time in service on active duty (No reserve component awards). Based on 6 Overseas service ribbons (awarded for service where no campaign medals are authorized) = 3 to 6 years. Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal ? likely another year ? clearly overseas. Defense of Korea ? same rationale as the Expeditionary Medal ? 1 year. Desert Storm ? another year. Tally 5 to 8 years overseas. Army ? based on uniform ? this officer has seen joint service time so were it not for the green uniform (out of vogue now?) the Army commendation medal could have been a rose thrown while wearing the ?purple suit?. Could be almost any branch but I suspect combat support or combat service support. I base this on multiple Humanitarian Service awards and no awards for valor or Air Medals. Twelve awards for Meritorious Service suggest officer and a senior one. That much overseas time plus at least the same amount of CONUS time plus Officer Basic, Advanced Course and C&GS tells me he had at least 18 to 20 years when this rack was worn. I?m thinking senior Lt. Col. or Colonel. Legion of Merit is often awarded at the end of a battalion command tour and the Defense Superior Service Medal also suggests at least that rank. This puppy could have all the checks in the right places for promotion to general officer status if he/she has had successful battalion and brigade equivalent command time. Of course the odds are long for that considering that the Army promotes 50 or so a year from about 4,000 colonels.

He may have been enlisted but those uniforms are a tad nicer than issue to my eye... In any other regiment, he'd have been the envy of everyone including the officers!

Update. VHPA (Vietnam Helicopter Pilot's Association) has a cd for sale that contains a database constructed fron a literal translation of the "Golden Book". The Golden Book was never formally published and is likely only 80 to 90% accurate - whatever that means. I am oerating under the assumption that after "scrubbing" this database should yield what I am after - what units - what those units carried for nominal strength and the approximate begin dates of introduction of the AH-1G. The data base generates different outputs for the same unit depending on the format of the unit identification used (A/1/9 Cav vs A 1 9 Cav). Very distracting and confusing. I've just completed working on the numbered weapons companies (235, 238, 334 & 361) - somewhat of a headach inducing activity... I will publish my findings here with all appropriate disclaimers when done. Don't hold your breath in the meantime - this is painful...

Enjoyed seeing this one with my own eyes - didn't even know what I was looking at! I would have known about the Iron Helm had it come out before I needed to leave. Drat! Not easy being me! Such great stuff! PS - Wild Card - your PM box is full - again...

Me too... Will post results when available.

As always happens - no sooner do I ask and I find (a lot like the proverbial blind squirrel). I think I have found the ?Golden Book?! I will report back after I get it if anyone is interested.

I am very interested in determining which units actually used the AH-1G operationally during the war. I own a copy of Mr. Jonathan Bernstein?s book, "US Army AH-1 Cobra Units in Vietnam" published by Osprey. I find this work to be sloppy and in many instances internally contradictory. Per this book, all Air Cavalry Troops, Aerial Field Artillery and Aero Weapons Companies (including the D Companies of the airmobile division assault helicopter battalions) ultimately were equipped and flew combat missions with this aircraft. In addition, the author claims that all divisional aviation battalion B companies operated the Cobra. While I can not confirm all of these statements, they seem reasonable enough. He further states (by way of a list) that 7 assault helicopter companies used the cobra as well. These are: 48 AHC 57 AHC 60 AHC 114 AHC 129 AHC 173 AHC? (within the book he cites pictures/illustrations of the 175th and places the 173rd in the wrong CTZ) 187AHC Because of the numerous errors, typographical and factual (his statements about my unit are patently incorrect), I lack confidence in this publication. I can not rely on its accuracy and do not know if there are factual errors and/or omissions. I have seen numerous tail number listings and other statistical information on the internet attributed to and referencing the "US Army Gold Book". I have been unsuccessful in locating this publication. Can anyone here be of assistance? Not all web-sites for Vietnam Helicopter Units give sufficient detail to determine if the unit operated cobras. What I would really like to do is use or create a database that would allow me to find the dates of assignment of cobras to the various units in Vietnam preferably by tail number. Does such a database exist or can you direct me to a source that will allow me to create one? What I ultimately wish to do is list, by company sized element, the number of cobras and the inclusive dates that these units operated the Cobra. Alternately, if you know the summarized information I seek that would be wonderful & I would be very grateful. By the way ? I am not pursuing this information for any literary or commercial reason. Thank you in advance. For the record: AWC = 235, 238, 334, 361, D/101, D/158, D/227, D/229 AFA = 2-20, 4-77, F-79 Cavalry = D/1-1, D/2-1, 7-1, D/1-4, D/3-4, F-4, D/3-5, F-8, 1-9, F-9, D/1-10, H-10, Air/11, C-16, 2-17, 3-17, 7-17, D-17, H-17 Infantry Division Aviation Companies = B/1, B/4, B/9, B/25, B/123.

Confusion R Us! Glad to see others confused on the old boy's rank! 2 pips = full general last I looked and yet the photo caption shows "GL aD". Thought I'd lost it there but as long as Rick & Glenn are confused, I at least can take the solace of being in good company (good not implying well behaved...).

HI, I?d like to throw a reminder out for consideration vis-?-vis the American Campaign Ribbon issues under discussion. To begin ? just because there were regulations governing the wear of ribbons ? they were not necessarily followed. The troops were not and in many cases, their leaders were not supremely knowledgeable in these matters ? most were not professionals and they had far larger fish to fry than ?Private Smedlap?s ribbon bar? which was likely only rarely worn. Many of the officers were ?90 day wonders?, the professional NCOs were very diluted considering the expansion from pre-war to 100 divisions for the Army alone. Beyond that, while entitlements were documented ? the information was often late, unnoticed or fell on the indifferent ears of draftees being mustered out following the cessation of hostilities. Case in point ? my father served with the US Army Air Force. He served in the US long enough to be entitled to the American Campaign Medal as well as the Asiatic for his service with radio intelligence in India. His discharge papers clearly show these two medals plus the Good Conduct and Victory Medals. We discussed his ?stuff? once when I was a kid and less knowledgeable on these matters. He showed me his THREE medals ? Good Conduct, Victory & Asiatic. He stated that he was told on discharge that he was entitled to a fourth medal but never bothered to pick one up. I, as a kid fantasized that it was some ?super gong ? DSM or something?. After his passing, mom gave me his military things including his discharge papers, medals and the likes and there it was! Super gong = American Campaign! No matter ? he will always be a hero to me. Finally ? entitlements often lag significantly ? campaign designations & credit, unit citations and the likes. To this I can attest from my own experience. Long winded with apologies but ? bottom line ? just ?cause it ain?t right don?t conclude it ain?t real?

Old guy?s opinion ? regard as such. The Air Medal was awarded commonly to flight personnel during World War II and there seems to be little traction for disrespect for that policy. Air combat in the hostile skies of Europe and the Pacific theaters was horrendous. A tangible device for recognizing that exposure seems no more inappropriate than the Combat Infantryman?s Badge. The business of combat flying then did not make for low insurance premiums? now let?s ponder a bit ? how long was the normal mission to say ? Germany? Well over 6 hours per my estimate. How much of that time was spent in the ?poo? on a given mission ? I leave that estimate to you. I have no issue with the award of a medal for what those guys saw and did. Contrast the ever-unpopular Vietnam experience. Single missions for the direct combat Army helicopters (scouts, lift-ships and guns) were usually shorter than 2 hours based on fuel loads alone. What percentage of that time was ?poo? time? I do not consider a ?Day Equivalent? spent enroute to and returning from a hot LZ where you got to go land in hostile territory, take fire and do other fun stuff to be particularly liberal especially in contrast to the WWII experience. When you consider the number of hours and sorties flown by our helicopter pilots, I?m not sure that the lightly made ?quite liberally roll eyes? comment was well considered. Of course there were many awarded ? there was a ton of very hazardous flying going on! Frankly, I find the implication very offensive. I have nothing but deep respect for the Great Generation. They deserve every ounce of our appreciation for their sacrifice. What I find disturbing is the lack of respect for the Vietnam combat veteran ? who ? by the way ? saw more combat than did his WWII counterpart. I seek no personal recognition because ? frankly Scarlet ? I don?t give a damn. But what does twist at my gut is the memory of the courageous young men and women who answered the call and served so honorably. Even today ? the lingering disrespect for these people infuriates me. They didn?t ask for anything but they certainly did not deserve what they got! Those who were not damaged beyond repair by their combat and subsequent experiences have done much for us. Who repaired the damage done to the US Army that later delivered Desert Storm? If my brothers and I seem to have a hair trigger on this respect issue ? perhaps it is because we?ve listened to 30 plus years of this crud from people who have no clue.

Thought I would add this to further appreciation for the meaning of 136 Air Medals in 6 tours. From varying sources ? Hugh Mills ? author of ?Low Level Hell? and retired Lieutenant Colonel who was a Cavalry Scout and Cobra pilot for two tours accumulated 3,300 hours and 69 Air Medals. He was not credited with Air Medals for the last 8 months of his second tour at the end of US hostilities due to shabby administrative work. He would have received approximately 100 Air Medals for combat flying in his two years. Contrast this total with the 136 number for 6 tours. Admittedly Captain Mills was what we termed a ?magnet ass? because of his ability to attract both metal (lead) and medals! My same sources also indicate that he received 3 Silver Stars, at least 4 Distinguished Flying Crosses, 3 Bronze Star Medals with ?V? device (these were, by regulation restricted to ground combat), 6 Air Medals with ?V? and 3 Purple Hearts. If I have a chance and there is interest, I will try to provide more examples.

Air Medals I?ve been watching this thread and am compelled to dispel what I believe to be inaccuracies. I base my statements on two things ? my service as an aviator in the Republic of Vietnam ? long standing study of military history. Opinion ? since its inception, the Air Medal has been awarded for two reasons. These reasons are ? Valor, generally as a reward for single incidents ? Meritorious Achievement such as establishing an altitude record or a remarkable feat of airmanship OR extended meritorious performance of aviation duties. In the second case, I tend to liken this award to the WWII German operational flight clasps. The medal in World War II and since has seen used as a tangible signal of extended exposure to the risks of combat flying. Opinion #2 ? the record for the number of air medals awarded is greater than that awarded to Mr. Tilgner. I recall reading of a mutli-tour aviation officer who exceeded this number and ultimately retired in the grade of general officer. As I can not provide documented evidence, I offer this as opinion only. I will also suggest that if Mr. Tilgner?s number is not the record, it is likely very close. Opinion #3 ? the award criteria for air medals for merit for aviators was consistent from unit to unit and for the duration of the Vietnam War. Opinion #4 ? I?ve NEVER heard of an Air Medal for 10 hours? must have been dropping nucs? Observation ? All flight duties in theater are not created equal. The Army categorized types of flight three ways: Combat Assault Combat Support Combat Service Support Combat Assault was flight involving operations directly against the enemy such as airmobile assaults, extractions, cavalry operations, medivac and attack helicopter patrols. Direct contact with the enemy was both very likely and often intended. Combat Support was flying to support operations but direct combat was not the intent. Combat Service Support was all other flights in country such as courier, liaison, check rides and the like. The standard for award of the air medal was 25 hours of CA, 50 hours of CS and 100 hours of CSS. There was no award for fractional amounts and I am not aware of fancy math such as 5 CA plus 15 CS plus 50 CSS yielding an air medal but that may have happened. Fun with math: Depending on the ?brand? flown by Mr. Tilgner, he must have flown between 3,400 and 13,600 hours in Vietnam. More cherished than the air medal for some was the ?grounded for excessive hours? (medically forced) award. I?m told the figure was once 80 but when I served in RVN, we were restricted to a maximum of 120 hours in 30 days. Unless wavered for operational necessity (catch-22) once this figure was exceeded, you were grounded until your running 30 day total dropped below 120. Using this figure and 6 ?Normal Tour Complete?s, he could have had a maximum of 8,640 hours in Vietnam. My conclusions: Hard to imagine all those Air Medals for CA time and nothing but the ?been there; done that? Bronze Stars. Good soldier and citizen who did his duty. At the extreme it could be 36 CSS & 100 CS ? we?ll never know unless we ask him? Chuck in Oregon and I both flew for the 1st Cavalry Division. I have solicited his observations. He flew slicks and stated that infantry being carried into combat Landing Zones for assaults could receive an Air Medal for 5 such operations. I flew Cobras with an Air Cavalry Troop flying missions such as visual reconnaissance, aerial escort and attack. My Air Medal total for one tour was 31 plus 2 with ?V?. I share this information for the reason of illustration only.

Way to be Rick! Huge task undertaken and well done! Thank you!

How does Rick do that??? The unnamed visitor missed the opportunity of being instructed by the good Colonel (then Major) by a year. This was a first year course considered by some to be part of the hazing. Even if that had not been the case ? the likelihood of mutual fond remembrances is slim as this morning class was often coma inducing at least for the students... the course being converted from ?ES&GS? to ?ES&BS? by grudging students. Colonel Charles Bertody Stone IV had a distinguished thirty-year career. He served two combat tours in Vietnam (first with the First Cavalry, second as a regimental advisor). His awards included the Combat Infantryman?s Badge, Legion of Merit, Distinguished Flying Cross, Soldier?s Medal, three Bronze Star Medals (one with ?V?), eight Air Medals (seven with ?V?) and an Army Commendation Medal (he already had two prior to deploying with the First Cavalry Division) for good measure. As a Colonel of Infantry, I?d say this apple fell reasonably close to the tree? Above is courtesy of the Register of Graduates and Former Cadets. The Bicentennial edition of same cites father and grandfather but does not link to Col. Rich, CSA whose sparse entry is only ?Indian Wars 56-57. Resigned 61 1LT. COL MO Inf CSA. Mortally wounded at Shiloh. Died August 62 aged 32.? Nice job of fleshing out this story Rick!

Two points - I believe the numbers shown to be flawed - they do not even total correctly. I recommend the following web offering where you will find the answers you seek. http://www.pourlemerite.org/

Helmets and liners were organizational property and turned in upon reassignment at the central issue facility. When reissued, the "sweat band" was removed and discarded. The liner was issued with a new band at the facility. Because of this - trying to relate the band to liner is invalid. These helmet liners were issued during WWII until the introduction of the new Kevlar helmets that began fielding around 1990.

I think Kev raises a very valid point that has not been addessed. In my experience, the Army issues Army Commendation, Air & Bronze Star Medals awarded for heroism with the "V" device attached. There is no sign of such a device having been affixed. Also, to my eye - that medal is not of the current vintage - frankly - it looks far better than the current issue pieces. Makes me suspicious.

Christopher Ailsby indicates that Graf won the Golden Pilot-Observer Badge with Diamonds. Frankly this is the only reference I've seen that makes this claim but if true, that would explain the position of the badge vs. the EKI. Many photos of Galland and others show this positioning for that badge.