Ulsterman

sort of- one can tell the era by the number. there is a list of awardees in the Pentagon, BUT it is secret. I asked and a friend of mine (who has one) inquired, but it's not for distribution for privacy, security, liability reasons etc. etc.

Perhaps Dave would be able to put his website here at GMIC? ???????????

welll.....I am in a rush but a fast and quick answer is ...BE VERY CAREFUL of anything on eBay. 99% of the VC stuff there was made last week in Ho Chi Minh city for tourists. Vietnam is dirt poor and they will make anything they can to sell for a US dollar. Indeed, some of these flags were made during the war! to sell to GIs...as were all sorts of odd patches and stuff. But real flags existed and were awarded as agitprop to individuals and units for bravery and merit. GIs used to find them in bunkers, on KIA VC and NVA and while they are uncommon, they are not rare. Most show some wear -given the humidity of Vietnam and they weren't exactly placed in dust free containers at the time. A guy I knew had a couple he pulled out of a tunnel in 1969 and they looked like worn dishrags, but given that he was a tunnel rat, they were hard won.

I do not think there is anything-even in print-on this subject. I have been interested in the IBs for years-but can't recall a single insignia article anywhere-ever.

..anyone? ...anyone? :whistle:

Well, ribbon #3 had a white ribbon over-sewn on it. While rearranging my British ribbon bars today I noted a slight hint of red, so after some deft tailoring, I discovered this underneath....but what is it ? Could it be a local constabulary long service medal? Help!

A useful test is to drop it from @ 4 inches onto concrete. A real one will go "clink". A fake will go go "thud". However, zinc ones were made. ...so it's a factor, not an absolute determinant.

Hmmmmmm....I may see R and evil R in a week or so. Evil R has been very,very busy-lots of stuff going on in his life.

Great thread!

well- I think the key is the officer-grade Wurttemberg orders. There were only @ 2,200 MMO awards in WW1 and @5,100 Freidrich orders 2nd class....which were awarded to Lieutenants. What this means is that this represents the bar of a very brave jr. officer who lived until 1935 at least. My guess is that the replaced medal was the obnoxious/illegal swastika- state LS medal and that this was the bar of a Lt. dR (Pion.) or ( adept) Arzt dR/L who never got a military LS medal, because they were a war volunteer type and got a DR commission. I tend to think of things in terms of odds: to my way of thinking I think it's 3:1 that the replaced medal was the state LS medal, followed by 10:1 RAD LS medal and 15:1 an imperial LS medal (which happened-but is rather unusual). I have partial lists of the MMO and just at looking through the list quickly- it seems that at least 20% of the names i have were KIA, so if we ever get a database going and can cross tab for additional awards/death/FO-MMO combo, I reckon we could narrow the list of names that bar could have belonged to-...... to about 500 names or so.

Thanks! Have you seen Mayans' book on Paraguayan War medals?

Perhaps more importantly- WHAT is the solid colored second medal ribbon on that mans' ribbon bar?

Good stuff! So what were the factors that declared them fakes? I got mine all in the late 1960s when they were still 1' - 6d apiece. I have always been leery as the Indian mint also made some stars and Ed Haynes pointed out that variation, but I can not remember what he said.

ahhhhh....you are being lawyerly in your language.OK I understand. I was referring more to the method of manufacturing (e.g. metal content and gilding etc.). For example "57" versions of the 1914 EK2 typically have several characteristics dissimilar to the 1945 and 1914 versions-thinner edges, different metal content etc.. Jamie Cross and I once had a very long email discussion on this @ 15 years ago when he had a few 1957 versions for sale.

so...Himmler was booted out the German army in 1919 as unfit?

How do you know it's not a "57" one? I have seen ads for them in the back of old German vets magazines, so I assume that they were sold as such to people who actually earned them. Is there a specific 1957 version?

Actually, my understanding of the award was a minimum of 10 days in uniform in war time service (or death/wounding)....in any location.

Well...it looks like him. I vote yes. Don Boyle has a group of early Himmler photos you might want to compare him to-but I gotta say, the shape of the nose, the ears, the head-that looks like the man. I always wondered why Himmler never got the HK without swords.

Yup-that's what I meant. he apparently spent @ 6-7 years out of Seattle and in Alaska. But we was "in" Cuba aboard a destroyer (USS Leary) -in the boiler room probably. He had a basset hound named Beauregard.

wel..did he survive the war- at least until Fall, 1918 (by the wound badge). There were VERY few EK1s to enlisted men-far fewer than most people realize.

good question. It looks like a one piece brass casting to me. These have been faked in Poland and Sedalzek made these post war as well (and was decent enough to put his name on them). Honestly, I don't know for certain, but my gut tells me this is a '57 one.

Dead on chaps- PO 1st class, Ed Marr. Enlisted in December, 1949 and retired in 1976. This was his ribbon bar in 1972-73 when he was aboard the USS Thor on ice breaking duty in Alaska (brrrr...). He spent most of his career in boiler rooms. It has a certain reserved dignity to it I think. He died a few years ago.

wow...you guys are good! You almost nailed it completely. What rank do you guess?

Not often indeed. There is a story behind that one for sure.

So...this ribbon bar dates from when the Viet-Nam war was winding down(wards). It was worn before the Pentagon desk warriors/politicians/"morale-builders" instituted the training ribbons and merit medals that are now given out so lavishly. I accidentally reversed the image-and then erased it- sorry. So, this guy had an relatively uneventful career-or did he? Who do you think he was? (Some of the documents came with the ribbon bar, so I was quite pleased).