waldo

Etui for a bavarian gold Military Merit Medal

The book from Sascha Zimmermann is with the publisher and should be finished this year. Many greetings

Here the golden military merit medal of Joseph Hoffmann, chief fireworker 1st AR "Prinz Luitpold", for an act on December 8, 1870 near Beaugency-Cravant. He had already been awarded the silver medal for 1866. Best regards, Walter

At the OMSA you can see Franz Dettenhofer's awards. I was with the family in 2020 and was allowed to take pictures of them. Many greetings Walter https://www.omsa.org/bei-uns-wird-nix-gfangt-hauts-zu-was-konnts-franz-dettenhofer-trager-der-bayerischen-silbernen-und-goldenen-militar-verdienst-medaille-fur-den-deutsch-franzosischen-krieg-1870-71/

The "big one" is my favorite too.

Here is my most interesting Bavarian favorite miniature medal bar. I've already introduced them somewhere here together with the big medal bar. Bavarian Military Merit Medal in Silver for 1849 or 1866 or 1870/71. Silver civil service medal, commemorative medal 1870/71, 1866 and 1849, service award cross 1st class for 40 years of service. In addition, the picture of the wearer wearing this miniature medal bar.

I can't answer the question. The swords are very early though.

Servus Scottplen, I don't like it at all. Hemmerle-MVKs 1st Class Krone Swords always have multi-part front medallions made of gold. There were no silver-gilt medallions. These MVKs are made with absolute quality. Compare my picture in the post above. Here are a few more examples of original Hemmerle medallions for this 1st Kr. X. Leser has one-piece front medallions made of gold, also of outstanding quality. Many greetings Walter

Hello scottplan, I do not like it. I wouldn't buy it. Many greetings Walter

Bad pictures. ? Hemmerle actually made this class. But to be able to judge it exactly, one would have to have better pictures. The front medallion must be made of gold in several parts. greetings from Bavaria Walter

Is looks good to me. I would buy them if I were looking for a medalbar like that.

Yes, this MVK 1. Kl. X is a fake. Ich hoffe, dass Du nicht noch mehr solcher Gurken gekauft hast. Bei ebay Deutschland werden jede Menge solcher Fälschungen angeboten.

Servus, All pre-1913 MVOs and MVKs had the same ribbon. In the picture by Spolei, the ribbon on the far left. VG Walter.

Ich würde mal sagen, dass die meisten MVKs eine Herstellermarkierung haben. Z.B. haben die meisten Deschler ein großes D auf den Schwertern. Weiss hat meistens ein WCo. etwas versteckt auf den Schwertern, Hemmerle oft ein GH auf der Agraffe. Nur von Lauer kenne ich keine Kennzeichnung ebenso von Leser auf den MVKs.

Servus, jetzt sage ich es mal auf Deutsch. Du solltest Dich erstmal intensiv mit der Thematik vertraut machen, denn Andreas und ich geben uns ja Mühe. Blos wenn Du unsere Aussagen anzweifelst und Thesen aufstellst, die nicht stimmen, musst Du Dir erstmal die Grundlagen aneignen. Dabei kann ich Dir nur die Beiträge in den Phaleristischen Forschungen oder im Thementeil bis 1918 im SDA wärmstens empfehlen. Wenn nicht, heißt es halt für Dich, "Das Rad neu erfinden" bzw. Learning bei doing, also kaufen, anschauen, sammeln und dabei lernen. Doch dass kann auch viel Lehrgeld kosten, wenn es sich um Fälschungen handelt. Viele Grüße Walter

Hello vPerlet, I can't find any discrepancies in the 2nd class. I can't tell you the materials though. In the 2nd class Krone X I would assume Deschler or Hemmerle. No Leser. Maybe someone else can give better information.

Servus Andreas, That depends on the period and the manufacturer. The 2nd form of MVKs was only made by Hemmerle. In the first form of the MVKs, Quellhorst could have worked with Hausinger. I'm not so good at MVOs. It's all in Sascha Zimmermann's book about the MVO. VG Walter

Servus Andreas, Du darfst nicht nach Deinem Handbuch gehen. Das ist nicht ausschlaggebend. Sobald die Statuten geändert wurden, sind die Änderungen in Kraft getreten. Medaillons wurden nach 1916 nur noch in Silber vergoldet verwendet. Hier kann es sein, dass die Vergoldung auch mal runtergeht, wie das bei so vielen Auszeichnungen nach 1916, die vergoldet wurden, der Fall war. Es gibt keine einzige Klasse eines MVO, die zwischen 1866 und 1918 nur silberne Medaillons hatte. Sie waren aus Gold oder dann eben aus Silber vergoldet. Sollte ein Medaillon silbern aussehen, ist die Vergoldung vergangen. Das, was ich Dir geschickt habe, hat den Stand ca, 1909/10. Alle Änderungen danach sind da nicht enthalten.

Servus Andreas, ich grüße die Berge von Dir. maybe I don't understand you correctly. MVOs without flames in silver did not exist before 1907 and later too. All MVOs prior to 1907 were in gold except 4th grade. So there were no MVOs without flames in silver. All MVKs had no flames.

Servus Andreas, there were 3 different forms of MVK. 1st form from 1866 - 1905, one class, silver, blue enamelled. 2nd form from 1905 to late 1913, two-class, 1st class silver with enameled front medallion of gold, 2nd class only in silver. 3. Form late 1913 - 1918 six classes, 1st class with crown and swords (originals very rare), gold-plated, enameled VS medallion in gold, 1st class with swords, as above but without a crown. 2nd class with crown and swords, silvered with enameled VS medallion, 2nd class with swords as above without crown, 3rd class with crown and swords, coppered without enameled medallion, 3rd class as above without crown. The swords were awarded for use in war. For the 1st form, the swords were subsequently donated and could be bought later. 2nd form swords were only awarded in South West Africa (very rare) and 3rd form swords for WW1. Viele Grüße aus Bayern Walter But be careful, the 1st and 2nd forms are often faked, the 1st grades of the 3rd form too.

Da legst Di nieda, bairisch kannst a. My price estimate for an undamaged MVO 4 silver-plated with case is between 450 and 550 euros. Maybe 600 euros in the blue case. Dealers much more expensive. VG Walter

Servus, Silver is hallmarked when the cross bearing the silver hallmarks is made of silver. The swords are often only stamped with 900. It doesn't matter whether the silver is gold plated or hollow. The carrier metal is more important. sh here too: http://h2385226.stratoserver.net/wbb4/index.php?thread/63095-information-%C3%BCber-fineness stamp-in-silver-or-goldware/&postID=390930&highlight=Gesetz%2BSilberwaren#post390930 Just register, it doesn't cost anything, and then you can see the post. 1. If the cross is silver (more than 800/1000), it had to be stamped with a silver hallmark no later than January 1, 1888. In this case, the shape, whether hollow or solid, is not decisive. Even gilding the silver does not change the process. 2. Since the tools for the gold MVOs were available, they were also used for the silver/gold-plated MVOs. Otherwise one would have had to produce new embossing tools for all classes from the 2nd class upwards. This was also done in the 3rd class, even if it would have been easier to gild a 4th class. The real facts and evidence can be found in Sascha Zimmermann's book. Thus, no gold stamps may be present on all silver/gold-plated MVOs. Sorry, my english is very bad. I use an online translator. The terms can sometimes be misrepresented. VG Walter

Servus from Bavaria, Your MVO shown is a 4th grade with silver/gold plated medallions. The flames are not used separately. If you don't want to believe it, I can't change that. Correct is: Weiss did not manufacture 3rd class MVOs. All originally awarded 3rd classes have extra inserted flames. Here a 4th class from Weiss with silver/gilt medallions and flames embossed with it Here the MVO from Sascha Wöschler's archive is greatly enlarged. You can see very well that the flames were not coined.

Here is a picture of the back of a 3rd class Krone X in silver/gold plated from the manufacturer Leser. Note the widened edge of the lower arm of the cross and the separately inserted flames (Sascha Wöschler archive)

Important topic All MVOs made after 1916 no longer had gold parts. In the 4th grades, originally only the medallions were made of gold; after 1916, these were also made in silver/gold-plated. From the 3rd class upwards, all flames of the MVOs were used separately. As a sign of the gilding, the rear lower arm of the cross was surrounded by a widened frame in all classes. If this widened frame is not available, a 3rd class is a subsequently gold-plated 4th class. For example, I'm showing a 2nd class with X in silver/gilt, made after 1916. The manufacturer Weiss & Co. did not produce any 3rd classes. Only 34 copies were retrofitted on September 13, 1916 from Knight's Crosses 2nd Class, with flames and swords. Thus one can state that none of the s/v copies of the manufacturer Weiss & Co. can show a broadened edge of the lower arm of the cross on the back, as they were not made in this way. There are only 34 golden specimens from Weiss, which Weiss converted from Knight's Crosses 2nd Class (according to the old classification). The two-volume book about the MVO by Sascha Zimmermann should be available for purchase later this year. Here you will find what I have written here and everything else about the MVO on approx. 1000 pages. Very few auction houses know that original silver/gold plated MVOs have extra inserted flames. VG Walter