David M

Hi Rick Dont feel rushed. I am just very happy someones taking this huge job to describing these rolls. I myself am busy describing the 1821-1831 episode of the kurhessian House Order of the Golden Lion. My entries at this moment look like this: From the lists of Commanders I. Class: 08.01.1831 Georg Carl Wilhelm M?ldner von M?lnheim (kurhessischer Adelsstand: Wilhelmsh?he 07.01.1831 mit v. M.). Geboren Breuna bei Wolfhagen 27.09.1782, gestorben Hanau 07.01.1863; Generalmajor und Generaladjutant, Commandeur des Regiments Garde-Gendarmerie zu Pferde, provisorischer Ministerialvorstand im Kriegsministerium. 01.11.1811 WK2a, 04.08.1815 OEH, 23.07.1821 OPVM, 07.03.1812 FEL 13.12.1822, 1821 DE. Arndt S. 451; Schr?der S. 897. Were the foreign recipients are concerned, I have a shorter entry, not describing the other awards and just the HGL. The double date at the FEL entry has to do with the date of award and the date of permission to wear it by the Elector. David

In this thread I hope we will be able to make an overview of the literature available on the orders and decorations of the pre-imperial German era. By doing this, the gaps in literature will be known and enthusiasts will be able to see where there are possibilities of writing valuable works to fill these gaps. Important to notice is that there are (IMHO) 2 kinds of books about orders: books just describing the decorations (the jewelry of the order if you like) and the recipients of the order. The catalogues of e.g. Nimmergut fill in the gap for the description of the jewelry, or don't they? Frankfurth, Reichsfreie Stadt (1816-1866), General-gouvernement (1813-1816) and Grossherzogtum (1807-1813) - Heyden, H. von: Der Condordien-Orden, die Ehrenmedaillen, sowie die Feldzugs- und Dienstalterszeichen des Grossherzogtums, des General-Gouvernements und der freien Stadt Frankfurt, in : Kleine Reihe f?r Freunde der Ordens und Ehrenzeichen-Kunde, No. 11, Hamburg (o.J.). The book does give a list of the Knights of the grandducal Concordia-Orden and the recipients of the Medal of the General-Gouvernement for the 1814 campaign. It also describes the history of the other medals of the several reigns. Kurhessen (Hessen-Kassel) General Sauer, Werner: Die Orden und Ehrenzeichen des Kurf?rstentums Hessen-Kassel, in : Kleine Reihe f?r Freunde der Ordens und Ehrenzeichen-Kunde, No. 7, Hamburg (o.J.).. This book describes the jewelry of the kurhessian orders and decorations. Of the OEH, the jewelry and Knights are described. Furthermore, the book gives the Statuten of all the medals and decorations except for the Militairy and civil service medals 1821-1832. And provides the numbers of awards of the Milit?rverdienstkreuz 1832-1847, 1849-1851 and the Wilhelmsorden (1851-1866). Unfortunately, Sauer does not give the sources he used. Hausorden vom goldenen L?wen (1770-1866) I am working on that at the moment. Orden pour la virtu militaire (equivalent to the prussian OPM) Losch, P.: Der Orden Pour la Vertu Militaire und seine Ritter in: Zeitschrift des Vereins f?r Hessische Geschichte und Landeskunde, Vol. II., S. 23-62. Kassel (1917). Describing the Knights, not the jewels Orden vom Eisernen Helm (1814-1816) (equivalent to the prussian EK) See General. Oldenburg Beyreiss, Friedhelm Preussen Klenau Arnhard Graf: Die Verleihungen des preussischen Rothen Adler Ordens in der ersten und zweiten Klasse von 1810 bis 1854, (PHV-Verlag). Offenbach (1997). Describing the Knights, not the jewelry Sachsen, K?nigreich Roth, Erhard: Die Verleihungen des Hausordens der Rautenkrone, des Verdienstordens, des Verdienstordens mit Schwertern (bis 1914) sowie der Damenorden des K?nigreichs Sachsen, (PHV-Verlag). Offenbach (1998). I hope you will help me in adding more books and smaller articles. Sould anyone feel obliged to comment on this initiative, be it positive or more with some criticisme, feel free to do so.

Would the Anhalt Staatshandb?cher have list of recipients? Maybe from that list, you would be able to make an assumption of the reason and/or circumstances it was awarded. Maybe the Statuten of the order would say something about this aswell

Exactly, books rule I would be interested in the Princely Hohenzollern issue, if still available

Hi Vince nice bar !! what is the last medal?

Hi! I am looking for someone who could help me out with copies or scans from Nimmergut on the civil and militairy service medals of the Kurf?rstentum Hessen(-Kassel) in the 1821-1832 period Hope to hear from you ( a PM is appreciated as well) Thanks a lot David

Hi I am looking for someone who could provide me with a scan with data from the Nimmergut books on the Austrian Army Cross (?sterreichischen Armeekreuz) awarded to members of the former ?sterreichisch-deutscheb Legion of 1813-1814. Hope someone could help me out here! Thanks a lot David

Yeah I know

Hi Rick I am basically looking for some pre 1866 awards of the SEH and GSF David

Does anyobody know if the Grandcross immediately stood for ennobilation? Are there any rolls of the SEH of Orden der Wachsamkeit of Sachsen-Weimar ? Thanks so much David

I think the redcross cross is pretty amazing too!!

It sure is Prinz Eitel 1 of the breast stars should be the BEO, the other one probably the HHO. David

I tried myself looking for Kammerherren in Darmstadt at HADIS, but did not find anything which could be related to the bar....so that leaves the Court and State books

Then check the name of the family at www.hadis.hessen.de and mayb you find a Kammerherr with that name

Hi gents! I am looking for the Priesdorff data of Generalmajor von Bursky, commanding the 11th Infanterie-Brigade (at Breslau??) 1850. Generalmajor von Wussow (1850) Generalmajor von Forstner Generallieutenant Peucker Would their be a picture to? Thanks so much David

I bet when you contact the Staatsarchiv in Darmstadt, they would be able to trace your man through the Staatshandb?cher. Could you post a close-up of that middle medal, I would love to examine it more closely!! Thanks David

Hi Joe I am thinking about preparing a page on the territorial change after 1800: adding the Principality of Fritzlar 1803 Principality of Isenburg 1815 Grandduchy of Fulda 1816 I would like to combine this with discussing the development of the kurhessian Staatswappen and the titles of the Kurf?rst. David

I would really value Rick Research's opinion to. Tried to pm you Rick, no luck though. Hope to hear from you (and anyone else to!!) David

Hi David! Thanks for your reply! Thanks again David

Some of you may have noticed my new website: www.virtute-et-fidelitate.net It is about Orders and decorations of Kurhessen. This country ceased to exist after the 7 weeks war of 1866. Although not regularly seen on medalbars nowadays, I still think such references are not at all a waist of time and money. They do add e.g.: biographical data. are of iconographical worth, as it is possible to date and identify portraits. Do or don't you agree with this and why do you think I should keep going/not bother at all What about the way I am presenting my information up to now (excell-sheets and html) About the lack of pictures, I am working on it hope to hear from you Best regards David

Hi Dave Thanks that's great....I seem to remember a book I once saw at zvab.com (should have bought it...I know) which was about I think hamburgian militairy history and included the era 1815<. Maybe I'll contact the archives in Hamburg to see what they know. David

Hi! I am looking for something on the history of the hanseatic cities militairy (basically pre 1866). Most I find is 1871<....Would there be an overview (maybe of just one of the cities) of the complete militairy history? I am mostly interested in the after 1815- and pre 1866 era. Did have a look around on the internet, but could not find anything Thanks so much

I could ofcourse wait for the real experts to reply...but could the first thingie on the medalbar be a small-version of the grandcross he is wearing. ...or is it better for me to just shut up.... Nice picture btw!! David

Hi Mike, Thanks for the reply on that, I was a bit puzzled, but have it figured out now! David

Hi Rick! Great photo! Just one question: why is he wearing his medals on the right side of the chest, is this the usual way to wear them at an ulanka (if I remember the name of such uniforms correctly....) David